Illegal Make Ready Stance?

[RangerTrace]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

usually when someone complains about “gaming”, it is simply an excuse they use to distract from a poor performance compared to people who practice harder and think more about the game

Moto, this is not a complaint at all.  Simply an observation from shooting several different shooting sports and being a 30 year cop. 

[RangerTrace]

15 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

you should measure the difference and see if its a couple of tenths. i measured it, and for me it was zero tenths, so i stopped worrying about it.

 

but fudds gotta fudd, so we’ll probably still be talking about this nonsense next year, and uspsa shooters will continue to get killed in the streets due to practicing the wrong hand position for a real gunfight, lolz.

You must be slow then....how could it not be faster if your hands have less distance to move!!  That is a Moto response right there!!

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

You must be slow then....how could it not be faster if your hands have less distance to move!!  That is a Moto response right there!!

sure, your hands have a couple inches less to move, but when they already have to move 2-3 feet, a couple more inches is not significant enough to show up on the timer for me. a far larger part of the draw time is reaction time, efficiency at building the grip, and picking up the sights and starting to aim before the gun is fully mounted.

 

but i am slow, you’re not wrong there..

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

Moto, this is not a complaint at all.  Simply an observation from shooting several different shooting sports and being a 30 year cop. 

understood, apologies if it sounded like i was calling you out.  to me, it just seems silly to try to be “practical” by enforcing subjective body positions that don’t have any relation to the real world anyway. olympic sprinters dont start standing erect (knees locked) and hands ‘naturally’ at sides, even tho running is the original most practical sport, lol. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by motosapiens

[RangerTrace]

40 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

understood, apologies if it sounded like i was calling you out.  to me, it just seems silly to try to be “practical” by enforcing subjective body positions that don’t have any relation to the real world anyway. olympic sprinters dont start standing erect (knees locked) and hands ‘naturally’ at sides, even tho running is the original most practical sport, lol. 

I hate it, but once again, you make a good point.

[ima45dv8]

Trace,

Practicality is long gone from this sport with respect to stage design. 

 

And that's OK. Because the benefit isn't from shooting someone's idea of a RTL scenario in the way they prescribe. The life-saving benefit is from learning for-real, hi-speed gun manipulation as a second nature. We strive to make it automatic. 

 

 

**Full disclosure -- I started shooting USPSA as a means to increase my hand-to-gun ratio. I discovered the pure wild-assed fun of it later. 

People have different motivations for starting but mine was to be proficient from a Martial Arts position. That's still my objective. And your career makes that a priority for you, too, Trace.

 

I see people work so damned hard for placement in matches, and I'm always impressed. Its inspirational!

And those same skills translate to other goals, as well.

 

[Chills1994]

When I was an MD, I just used “hands on X’s, toes on X’s”.

 

Or “finger tips on X’s, heels on X’s”

 

I used blaze orange duct tape ripped into narrower strips to make the X’s for the finger tips or hands.

 

I might have used the duct for the 2X2 wooden fault lines, but I would rather draw X’s with a sharpie marker.

 

Every now and then I will catch a video of somebody shooting a stage.  The whole “IPSC monkey” stance makes me cringe.

 

But that’s just me and my personal opinion.

[usmc1974]

On 5/7/2022 at 7:50 AM, Chills1994 said:

When I was an MD, I just used “hands on X's

 

Or “finger tips on X’s,

Want to talk about stances and gaming..lol ..When they stay hands on X's have you ever seen this before?

[louu]

On 5/6/2022 at 4:17 PM, RangerTrace said:

I've shot very little USPSA in the last 8 years, but when I used to shoot

Don't let the yoga pants scare you off, shooting is still fun

[Johnny_Chimpo]

4 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

Want to talk about stances and gaming..lol ..When they stay hands on X's have you ever seen this before?

 

I see a guy who's gaming it so hard that he just made the draw more difficult than it needs to be

[usmc1974]

Here is another one, stage description said, start hands above head at surrender. As an RO I'm pretty easy going, But I had to called him, on this one. He was just gaming it too hard..

Edited May 8, 2022 by usmc1974

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, usmc1974 said:

Here is another one, stage description said, start hands above head at surrender. As an RO I'm pretty easy going, But I had to called him, on this one. He was just gaming it too hard..

i don't get it. neither of your pix shows any 'gaming'. if the wsb says hands above head, obviously these hands aren't above head, but that's not gaming, that's just not being in the correct start position.

 

for the one with hands on x's, all good shooters start with more knee bend and lean. Your picture shows a guy handicapping himself by getting his center of gravity on the wrong side of his feet. but who cares? if his hands are on the x's, he can do whatever the hell he wants and I don't care. no subjectivity. Hooray.

[RangerTrace]

7 hours ago, louu said:

Don't let the yoga pants scare you off, shooting is still fun

Come to DFW and I will buy you a beer

[usmc1974]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

If his hands are on the x's, he can do whatever the hell he wants and I don't care. no subjectivity. Hooray.

Well there ya, go!

Edited May 9, 2022 by usmc1974

[Thomas H]

On 5/6/2022 at 6:08 PM, RangerTrace said:

They do.  And things become less and less, practical.

 

And yet I'm pretty sure that pretty much every academy out there teaches you to have your hands NOT "at your sides naturally" when in a situation in which you may need to draw your gun.

 

Calling it "less practical" when people, within the rules, move themselves into position to more quickly access the firearm----seems the opposite of reality.  Heck, isn't one of the old "standard confrontation positions" for police officers something like "one hand on the gun, the other hand outstretched in a 'stop' position?"  Literally starting with a hand on the gun before it is needed?  Isn't that practical?

 

Currently aren't people taught things like a neutral guard hand position to keep the hands up and ready to block but low enough to access the firearm quickly?

 

Arguing that "hands naturally at sides" is more practical seems.....odd.

 

 

[RangerTrace]

50 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

And yet I'm pretty sure that pretty much every academy out there teaches you to have your hands NOT "at your sides naturally" when in a situation in which you may need to draw your gun.

 

Calling it "less practical" when people, within the rules, move themselves into position to more quickly access the firearm----seems the opposite of reality.  Heck, isn't one of the old "standard confrontation positions" for police officers something like "one hand on the gun, the other hand outstretched in a 'stop' position?"  Literally starting with a hand on the gun before it is needed?  Isn't that practical?

 

Currently aren't people taught things like a neutral guard hand position to keep the hands up and ready to block but low enough to access the firearm quickly?

 

Arguing that "hands naturally at sides" is more practical seems.....odd.

 

 

Absolutely, if you know you're about to get into a shooting situation, have your hand on your gun or already out of the holster.  But we can't do that in USPSA/IDPA so they try to have your hands in a standardish start position.  Like I said, not too long ago, it was with your arms hanging at your side.  It's changed for whatever reason.  Just an observation.  Do whatever you can get away with that saves you some time.......

[broadside72]

On 5/8/2022 at 2:58 PM, usmc1974 said:

Here is another one, stage description said, start hands above head at surrender. As an RO I'm pretty easy going, But I had to called him, on this one. He was just gaming it too hard..

this is why I use "wrists above respective shoulders" so not both to one side or one in front of your face or really wide either. 

[broadside72]

As for "fully erect" I take that as your natural stance. Are you not going to start or penalize for not following the WSB the person with MS or a fused spine because they can't stand perfectly upright? Much like the definition of facing uprange that allows for a "natural 'toes out'" position. 

[outerlimits]

the one that gets a bunch of folks is "standing outside the shooting area".   non-pro tip...that aint always the back of the shooting area.

[jubi351]

We had a bunch of people complaining about that one last weekend. Because it did not state "completely outside the shooting area", first squad started outside but the next squad elected to have one foot in and one foot out and then the arguing began. Gamers gonna game.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, jubi351 said:

We had a bunch of people complaining about that one last weekend. Because it did not state "completely outside the shooting area", first squad started outside but the next squad elected to have one foot in and one foot out and then the arguing began. Gamers gonna game.

thats not gaming, that’s literally the rules. admittedly it’s annoying to noobs who haven’t learned the rules, but there’s nothing to argue about.

[Thomas H]

16 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

Absolutely, if you know you're about to get into a shooting situation, have your hand on your gun or already out of the holster.  But we can't do that in USPSA/IDPA so they try to have your hands in a standardish start position.  Like I said, not too long ago, it was with your arms hanging at your side.  It's changed for whatever reason.  Just an observation.  Do whatever you can get away with that saves you some time.......

 

In IDPA you can start with your hand on the pistol if the WSB allows it.  (In USPSA you can't, no matter what.) Indeed, awhile back in IDPA (and USPSA) it was "hands hanging naturally at sides" but as someone who runs shooters a lot, that was a ridiculous start position because there wasn't an easy, simple way to determine if it was being done for any particular competitor.  ("Arms hanging naturally" is different for different people.)  That's why I much prefer "wrists below belt" because it is a simply yes/no situation, and everyone can agree on whether or not the condition is being met. 

 

My point however, was your comment about it being "less practical."  You say now:  "Just an observation" ---but you literally said it was "less practical" when that's actually the opposite of true.  Setting the situation so you are in the best position possible is literally more practical, and "hands hanging at sides" is something every academy and self-defense instructor tries to get people to STOP doing. 

 

 

[Bagellord]

12 hours ago, jubi351 said:

We had a bunch of people complaining about that one last weekend. Because it did not state "completely outside the shooting area", first squad started outside but the next squad elected to have one foot in and one foot out and then the arguing began. Gamers gonna game.

 

Yeah that's just how the rule is written. I always specify completely outside.

 

Then I had a squad start one foot in one out when I had "anywhere inside the shooting area" as the start position in order to game it.... Wasn't happy when I saw the videos after the match.

[twodownzero]

7 minutes ago, Bagellord said:

 

Yeah that's just how the rule is written. I always specify completely outside.

 

 

One foot outside is still "completely outside" as far as the rules are concerned.

 

If you want both feet outside of the shooting area, you need to say that. 

[shred]

Sometimes IPSC's "Freestyle starts after the beep" philosophy makes sense...