Illegal Make Ready Stance?

[LordManHammer]

At a recent local club match a fellow shooter in my squad stated to the rest of the squad and RO my stance was "illegal" according to the USPSA rule book.  He claimed my stance was "too athletic" and the rules stated I needed to stand "fully erect."  I will concede my knees were bent and my body was "coiled for speed" but no more so than other athletic stances i.e. baseball batter, boxer etc.  The stage was essentially a modified Can You Count without the mandatory mag change.  I'm shooting at a close and open target.  No low port and there was no perceived advantage over someone who chose to stand with their knees locked.  I shot the stage how I wanted with no further discussion (did well and won the stage and HOA).  I contacted a friend who is a CRO with the question and he consulted an RM.  They commented the question was an "interesting" one as they could find no specific definition of "fully erect" in the rule book.  Can anyone clarify or comment?

[dapribek]

I would think that to most people standing erect simply means that, no bending of knees. 

[driver8M3]

You'll have to post exactly what the WSB said before we can clarify/comment.

[Bhayden]

The only rule in the book about start positions is the definition of 'facing uprange'. That is very specific. 

 

Lacking anything in the WSB, your stance doesn't matter.

[LordManHammer]

6 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

You'll have to post exactly what the WSB said before we can clarify/comment.

I'm afraid at this point I can't retrieve or provide that information.  There were no "special" instructions.  "Facing downrange hands relaxed at sides etc."

[Sarge]

19 minutes ago, Bhayden said:

The only rule in the book about start positions is the definition of 'facing uprange'. That is very specific. 

 

Lacking anything in the WSB, your stance doesn't matter.

Standing is defined in the glossary 

[driver8M3]

A lot of people use the word "standing" in their WSBs...and that word is actually defined in the glossary of the rule book.

 

"Standing - The competitor's body is fully erect with both feet planted firmly on the ground or other designated position." If that's in a WSB, then you really shouldn't be bending your knees.

 

I never use it in our WSBs because not everyone is aware so it's not really fair for some squads to enforce it while most others wouldn't.

 

If the WSB just said facing downrange with hands relaxed at sides, I don't see how bending your knees could be forbidden.

[Bagellord]

Unless the WSB specified a stance such as standing, then your start was legal. Personally I do not use "standing" unless I am doing something where I absolutely want that followed, because most people simply forget about it.

[George Jones]

Your RO apparently has not kept up with rules updates.

This is what the rulebook said in the 2014 edition:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3

 

The 2019 rules amended the rule to read:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to USPSA Competition Rules January 2019 43 reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

 

Note that the reference to "standing erect" was removed.  Also note that the definition of "Facing Downrange" was also simplified.  "Monkey motions" are now allowed.

 

 

[Matt1911]

I’ve never come across this before. Thank you for the question and clarification Benos community. 
I do however see a whole lot of people trying to time the beep and start moving their hands towards the gun early. 

[George Jones]

That's a different problem altogether.

A creeping penalty usually will correct those tendencies.  

Avoiding using the same Beep cadence will help.

[LordManHammer]

12 minutes ago, George Jones said:

Your RO apparently has not kept up with rules updates.

This is what the rulebook said in the 2014 edition:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms and hands hanging naturally by the sides (see appendix E3 for an example of this). A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3

 

The 2019 rules amended the rule to read:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to USPSA Competition Rules January 2019 43 reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

 

Note that the reference to "standing erect" was removed.  Also note that the definition of "Facing Downrange" was also simplified.  "Monkey motions" are now allowed.

 

 

Thank you for replying to my inquiry.  I'm still confused as to whether I can bend my knees.  Please elaborate on "monkey motions."  I've not heard that term.

[George Jones]

Just a tongue in cheek comment that the shooter can assume any ridiculous stance, logical or not, that does not violate the WSB.

The same does not apply to "Facing Uprange" which is very specific.

Edited May 6, 2022 by George Jones

[Johnny_Chimpo]

12 minutes ago, LordManHammer said:

Thank you for replying to my inquiry.  I'm still confused as to whether I can bend my knees.  Please elaborate on "monkey motions."  I've not heard that term.

 

Yes, you can bend your knees unless the WSB states that you have to "stand"

 

It's one of those "if it's not prohibited, it's allowed" things

Edited May 6, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[RangerTrace]

I've shot very little USPSA in the last 8 years, but when I used to shoot it a lot, hand hanging naturally at sides, was exactly that.  Now, I see tons of videos where the weak hand is placed on the midline/belt and the strong hand arm is bent.  I'm sure it saves a couple tenths, but it looks illegal.

[driver8M3]

3 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

I've shot very little USPSA in the last 8 years, but when I used to shoot it a lot, hand hanging naturally at sides, was exactly that.  Now, I see tons of videos where the weak hand is placed on the midline/belt and the strong hand arm is bent.  I'm sure it saves a couple tenths, but it looks illegal.

 

Lots of MDs are now using "wrists below belt" as the standard start position as it's easier to consistently enforce than "hanging naturally at sides." I've noticed a lot of people even gaming "wrists below belt" with the weak hand, as you noted, at the midline and sometimes not below the belt (it's often hard for the RO to see)...so I've started using "hands touching ears or earpro," which is very easy to see and enforce consistently.

[RangerTrace]

10 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

 

Lots of MDs are now using "wrists below belt" as the standard start position as it's easier to consistently enforce than "hanging naturally at sides." I've noticed a lot of people even gaming "wrists below belt" with the weak hand, as you noted, at the midline and sometimes not below the belt (it's often hard for the RO to see)...so I've started using "hands touching ears or earpro," which is very easy to see and enforce consistently.

Nice work!!

[Boomstick303]

8 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

hanging naturally at sides

 

Agreed.  "Hanging naturally at sides" is too subjective.  What is naturally at sides for one person is not for another.  I for one, cannot straighten either arm completely, does that mean may arms are not naturally hanging at my sides?

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

I've shot very little USPSA in the last 8 years, but when I used to shoot it a lot, hand hanging naturally at sides, was exactly that.  Now, I see tons of videos where the weak hand is placed on the midline/belt and the strong hand arm is bent.  I'm sure it saves a couple tenths, but it looks illegal.

 

Start position: toes on mark, facing downrange, wrists below belt.  What you describe is 100% legal for the start position I just described, which is one very common around here.

 

Rules change.

[RangerTrace]

They do.  And things become less and less, practical.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

They do.  And things become less and less, practical.

 

The interesting thing is, people who are at the very sharpest tip of the spear still consider USPSA to be the pinnacle of handgun skill.

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Yes, you can bend your knees unless the WSB states that you have to "stand"

 

It's one of those "if it's not prohibited, it's allowed" things

i would say you can bend your knees even if the wsb says you have to stand. people stand all the time with slightly bent knees. in the army they even taught us to bend our knees slightly when standing at attention for long periods.

[RangerTrace]

1 minute ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

The interesting thing is, people who are at the very sharpest tip of the spear still consider USPSA to be the pinnacle of handgun skill.

No question it is the fastest and most gamey sport on the market.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

I've shot very little USPSA in the last 8 years, but when I used to shoot it a lot, hand hanging naturally at sides, was exactly that.  Now, I see tons of videos where the weak hand is placed on the midline/belt and the strong hand arm is bent.  I'm sure it saves a couple tenths, but it looks illegal.

you should measure the difference and see if its a couple of tenths. i measured it, and for me it was zero tenths, so i stopped worrying about it.

 

but fudds gotta fudd, so we’ll probably still be talking about this nonsense next year, and uspsa shooters will continue to get killed in the streets due to practicing the wrong hand position for a real gunfight, lolz.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, RangerTrace said:

No question it is the fastest and most gamey sport on the market.

usually when someone complains about “gaming”, it is simply an excuse they use to distract from a poor performance compared to people who practice harder and think more about the game