Are striker guns still safe?

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

A question for @Racinready300ex, for the guys who shot themselves, was it in competition?  If it was not in competition, has there been a rash of people shooting themselves in competition?  Serpa Holster have been banned by some ranges for the issue of the retention device can lead to ADs with a natural gun draw.  Not sure we can equate that to a light trigger can we? 

  

 

We can't say it was the trigger, in fact unless the gun just went off on it's own it boils down to it was the shooters fault. But, we all know there are guns at our matches without functioning safeties. I've wondered if others think that's a good idea or not. We also debate all over this forum about striker triggers being on par with SAO which require a external safety. It seems as though there really isn't anything to be done, it's big boy rules after all.

 

To your question, both shooters were shooting IDPA matches using P320's. The first guy was using a serpa which was immediately banned from the club after that incident. I know we had a 3rd shooter AD on the draw putting around between him and the RO last summer I think it was. Again this was at a IDPA match. I do not believe the club has had any incidents outside of matches, so I do fear the Rifle guys (who have more people on the BOD) could shut down pistol matches if they feel they are unsafe. That is the flip side of big boy rules I guess. 

[UpYoursPal]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

i've fallen at least 3 times in matches, and seen other people fall a few dozen times. I haven't seen (or heard of) a discharge when falling. I'm sure it's possible tho.

 

fwiw, it appears to me that the majority of shooting oneself while holstering issues are not associated with competition.

Not to snipe you, but this very thing happened at Area 5 last year AND was caught on video.

[Racinready300ex]

18 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

 

I have to be honest, this thread seems to me to be a bit of click bait. There's no info about when, how, type of gun, level of shooter, USPSA, IDPA or outlaw match. 

 

 

Be safe, ROs pay attention!

 

When, Post number 1 says this year

 

How, post number 3 says one was drawing and one was holstering

 

Post number 3 also says it was a IDPA match.

 

I'm not trying to dox the club on the shooters here. 

 

18 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

And if you don't like striker fired pistols don't use one.

 

I think striker fired pistols are fine, safe and I use one regularly. But I don't disable the safeties, and I wouldn't compare my trigger to a SAO trigger. Those are the guns I wonder about. 
 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, UpYoursPal said:

Not to snipe you, but this very thing happened at Area 5 last year AND was caught on video.

this is a good point, at least one unsafe douchey guy has launched a round when falling.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

But, we all know there are guns at our matches without functioning safeties. I've wondered if others think that's a good idea or not. We also debate all over this forum about striker triggers being on par with SAO which require a external safety.

 

You're mixing and conflating issues together to the point that it's close to becoming a circular argument.  You're also making some huge assumptions.

 

First of all, no, not all of us "know" that there are guns at our matches without functioning safeties.  You might know that about certain people.  But that's as far as it goes.  I personally don't know of anyone who does that, and I'm not going to inquire or dig into it.

 

Secondly disabling any safety mechanism is against USPSA rules, aside from some very specific exceptions which are also clearly spelled out in the rules.  So why would you even wonder if anyone is OK with violating that rule?  I bet no one here is, and if someone was I doubt they would admit it.

 

Third, the debate that you refer to about SFA triggers being "on par" with SAO triggers is a very specific debate about the feel/quality of the trigger press.  That absolutely does not mean that the mechanical design or engineering of any SFA trigger system, including its automatic internal safeties, is the same as that of the traditional 1911-based SAO trigger system that most people refer to implicitly in that comparision.

 

There is no equivalency here.  There is no epidemic of unsafe striker fired guns here.  If you're going to worry about something, start worrying about DA/SA pistols that come from the factory without any firing pin block and that are carried all over a stage cocked without anything blocking the sear.  An RO was killed in New York last year and from everything I've been able to find, the pistol that fired accidentally when it hit the ground was one such as I described above. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Johnny_Chimpo

[Racinready300ex]

46 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

You're mixing and conflating issues together to the point that it's close to becoming a circular argument.  You're also making some huge assumptions.

 

First of all, no, not all of us "know" that there are guns at our matches without functioning safeties.  You might know that about certain people.  But that's as far as it goes.  I personally don't know of anyone who does that, and I'm not going to inquire or dig into it.

 

Secondly disabling any safety mechanism is against USPSA rules, aside from some very specific exceptions which are also clearly spelled out in the rules.  So why would you even wonder if anyone is OK with violating that rule?  I bet no one here is, and if someone was I doubt they would admit it.

 

Third, the debate that you refer to about SFA triggers being "on par" with SAO triggers is a very specific debate about the feel/quality of the trigger press.  That absolutely does not mean that the mechanical design or engineering of any SFA trigger system, including its automatic internal safeties, is the same as that of the traditional 1911-based SAO trigger system that most people refer to implicitly in that comparision.

 

There is no equivalency here.  There is no epidemic of unsafe striker fired guns here.  If you're going to worry about something, start worrying about DA/SA pistols that come from the factory without any firing pin block and that are carried all over a stage cocked without anything blocking the sear.  An RO was killed in New York last year and from everything I've been able to find, the pistol that fired accidentally when it hit the ground was one such as I described above. 

 

Knowing of someone would mean I know that there are guns at matches that fit that criteria. You can choose to believe they don't exist if you like. 

 

It's against the rules but I've yet to see anyone's gun checked. Maybe we should consider that. Of course in the past we've done away with equipment rules we feel aren't enforceable.

 

The third point is a separate issue sure, but it's related. For example if a 80 series 1911, with a 3.5 lbs trigger, a functioning grip safety a half cock notch is still considered unsafe and DQable if you holster it with out the thumb safety on. But a striker fired gun with zero pre travel and a 2 lbs pull is safe because it didn't come with a thumb safety doesn't seem logical really. 

 

There are already threads about starting from the half cock in a attempt to prevent that incident from happening again. And it was discussed by the BOD. Why should there not be threads to discuss ideas about other platforms and potential issues?

[HesedTech]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I'm not trying to dox the club on the shooters here. 

Deleted my comment, not really a great thread that contributes to the sport. 

Edited May 6, 2022 by HesedTech

[shred]

Same here, except for the A5 video where it was hard to tell what went on, I've seen or heard of dozens of 'tuned' 2011's dumped on the ground in the many years I've been shooting and not one going off.  Plenty of ADs from getting on the trigger too soon with all kinds of guns though.

 

 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 5/2/2022 at 12:25 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 The internets are full of posts and reviews of new triggers getting 2 lbs pulls

 

Some can be adjusted to have zero pretravel and overtravel with little if any creep.

 

The strikers are basically 100% cocked, or really close to it now. 

 

 

You haven't established that it's required to defeat or disable even one of the several internal safeties of striker fired pistols to achieve any of the above.

 

You saying it's so doesn't even come close to making it so.

 

If you know of someone who has defeated any of the safeties of their SFA handgun, confront them and/or let match staff know.

 

Otherwise this problem exists only in your imagination.

[Racinready300ex]

22 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

You haven't established that it's required to defeat or disable even one of the several internal safeties of striker fired pistols to achieve any of the above.

 

You saying it's so doesn't even come close to making it so.

 

If you know of someone who has defeated any of the safeties of their SFA handgun, confront them and/or let match staff know.

 

Otherwise this problem exists only in your imagination.

 

I have not attempted to establish that anything is required.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

17 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I have not attempted to establish that anything is required.

 

So this thread is all 100% speculation like I thought.

 

I think this thread should be closed.  Not sure what constructive purpose it serves because speculation is just one step above gossip.

[Racinready300ex]

On 5/6/2022 at 4:36 PM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

So this thread is all 100% speculation like I thought.

 

I think this thread should be closed.  Not sure what constructive purpose it serves because speculation is just one step above gossip.

 

Let me clarify maybe, I'm not saying you must disable safety's to have a good trigger in a striker fired gun. If that's what you were trying to imply. I am saying that because it is so easy to mistakenly or unknowingly disable a safety when installing aftermarket triggers that it is extremely likely there are striker guns at our matches who's safety's do not function properly. Which is against the rules but is never checked. 

 

I'd assume you'd at least support equipment check at majors testing striker safety's? It would just be attempting to enforce rules that already exist. Then we could at a minimum get some data as to how much of a problem this may or may not be. 

 

A separate debate would be if we can have a 2lbs SA like trigger with functioning safeties. Should we? I think the consensus will be, it's a big boy game. Use what you want at your own risk. 

[Boomstick303]

29 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I am saying that because it is so easy to mistakenly or unknowingly disable a safety when installing aftermarket triggers that it is extremely likely there are striker guns at our matches who's safety's do not function properly.

 

I think we can agree the thing we are talking about is the drop safety they "might" be disabling.  The trigger still has to be pulled which I would assume is what happened in every AD event you are discussing.  Disabling drop safeties while concerning, and should not be done I am not sure how you police that other than what you describe above.  The fix for the events at your club is not discussing the disabling of drop safeties.  It would be the proper handling of hand guns.  

 

The other thing we should NOT be doing is conflating light triggers to disabling internal drop safeties.  Again I point to the fact I have not seen anyone burn one off with a striker fired pistol, like I have seen with 2011/1911s.   Light triggers are not an issue I see with striker fired guns.

 

As far as the thread, I probably would not have discussed the ADs, and the disabling of internal drop safeties in the same thread.  They are two different issues.  To me this has muddled the discussion.

Edited May 9, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Johnny_Chimpo]

8 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 I am saying that because it is so easy to mistakenly or unknowingly disable a safety when installing aftermarket triggers that it is extremely likely there are striker guns at our matches who's safety's do not function properly.

How easy is so easy?  How do you know this?  Which aftermarket triggers make it "easy" or "easier" (or whatever other vague term you'd like to use) to inadvertently disable one or more of the internal safeties?  On which pistols?  How do you know it's extremely likely that this is already happening?  Give us something more than the hunches or opinions that you present as if they were factual

 

 

8 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I'd assume you'd at least support equipment check at majors testing striker safety's?

If you can figure out how to do it quickly and accurately for every handgun brand on the market, go for it.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

A separate debate would be if we can have a 2lbs SA like trigger with functioning safeties. Should we?

Which problem would this fix? 

[USP45]

This thread is a month+ old now, but is an interesting topic. Owning both a few Glocks and several Sig P320's (some with trigger work and some totally stock) I can tell you that a person needs to be aware of how some trigger modifications will effect built in safety measures. The largest contributor that I have seen is when on certain models of striker fired pistols one attempts to reduce pre-travel.

 

On a Glock the trigger bar has a "nub" on the top of it which depresses the striker block (think firing pin block aka series 80 1911) as the trigger is pulled to the rear. If you remove too much take-up without modifying the shape of this nub on the trigger bar the the trigger is already set so far to the rear that the striker block is already effectively engaged or depressed to the point where it would no longer serve as a physical block to the striker being able to move forward. A very easy way to see how this works is to hold an unloaded Glock upside down without a mag and use a flashlight to look through the magwell as you pull the trigger to release the striker on an empty chamber. You can watch the nub on the trigger bar push the striker block up as you pull the trigger. If you have a Glock whose trigger is modified to the point where that nub is depressing the striker block when in a static position prior to the trigger being pulled then it really has no striker block at that point... not very safe.

 

A Sig P320 is somewhat similar in that it too has a striker block in the slide as well, at least the post fix ones do. On the Sig with the slide removed and the take down lever in the assembled position when you pull the trigger you can watch a small lever in the FCU (fire control unit) raise up as the trigger is pulled. It is this lever which acts upon the striker block making it possible for the striker to move completely forward to ignite a primer. Again, it you were to take out so much pre travel as to have that lever already raised in a static state then once again you have defeated the safety measure which was built into the design. So long as that lever is down until you begin the trigger stroke then the pistol is drop safe and should negate a ND unless the trigger is being actively pulled. With that being said I personally prefer the M17 and M18 versions of the P320 (although I do use a P320 X5 Legion) as due to mil specifications they also have a frame mounted safety similar to a 1911.

 

All of this is to say that most designs of striker fired pistols are inherently safe until someone tinkers with things thet do not fully understand and make them unsafe. Which can also be done to just about any firearm.