Are striker guns still safe?

[Racinready300ex]

Just thinking out loud a little. The internets are full of posts and reviews of new triggers getting 2 lbs pulls. Some can be adjusted to have zero pretravel and overtravel with little if any creep. The strikers are basically 100% cocked, or really close to it now. We're even making the case that the triggers are just as good as 1911's so we should allow SAO into CO. Most of us would say running a SAO gun with out a manual safety would be bad, and is against the rules. Are we good with the current SAO striker guns in the sport?

 

I've been wondering about this, and now my local club has had 2 guys shoot themselves in the leg this year. I don't want to blame the gun, they shot themselves. But I can't help but wonder if modern equipment isn't making things worse. 

 

 

[CClassForLife]

I think the issue is from people trying to push to limits in livefire that they didn't properly explore in dryfire. Lighter triggers don't help the situation, and I'm always a tad bit nervous around people with sub 2 lb triggers. Personally, I wouldn't trust a draw that I can't do 1000 times safely in a row. If I fail just once in dryfire with a draw, then I'm not using it with live ammo. Others might think 999/1000 is an acceptable level of risk and probably won't listen to any advice urging additional caution.

 

[robport]

Combine that with the new, "you can sweep your leg" ruling on a seated draw and the newly approved "shoot your penis off" holster position and I'm starting to think about what type of liability could be made to attach to SO's and CSO's in event of an accident.   There could be some huge lawsuits by the survivors and no one is going to cover your legal fees.

[Racinready300ex]

27 minutes ago, CClassForLife said:

I think the issue is from people trying to push to limits in livefire that they didn't properly explore in dryfire. Lighter triggers don't help the situation, and I'm always a tad bit nervous around people with sub 2 lb triggers. Personally, I wouldn't trust a draw that I can't do 1000 times safely in a row. If I fail just once in dryfire with a draw, then I'm not using it with live ammo. Others might think 999/1000 is an acceptable level of risk and probably won't listen to any advice urging additional caution.

 

 

One of these shooters was holstering, not drawing. The other I think was on the draw and was using a serpa. The club blamed the holster and banned their use. 

 

This was a IDPA match, and I think in IDPA due to concealment you need to be more carefull about obstructions in or around you holster that could get into the trigger gaurd and fire the gun. 

[RJH]

37 minutes ago, robport said:

Combine that with the new, "you can sweep your leg" ruling on a seated draw and the newly approved "shoot your penis off" holster position and I'm starting to think about what type of liability could be made to attach to SO's and CSO's in event of an accident.   There could be some huge lawsuits by the survivors and no one is going to cover your legal fees.

 

All this has been legal in USPSA for years with no issue to speak of. I wouldn't sweat it too much

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

Just thinking out loud a little. The internets are full of posts and reviews of new triggers getting 2 lbs pulls. Some can be adjusted to have zero pretravel and overtravel with little if any creep. The strikers are basically 100% cocked, or really close to it now. We're even making the case that the triggers are just as good as 1911's so we should allow SAO into CO. Most of us would say running a SAO gun with out a manual safety would be bad, and is against the rules. Are we good with the current SAO striker guns in the sport?

 

I've been wondering about this, and now my local club has had 2 guys shoot themselves in the leg this year. I don't want to blame the gun, they shot themselves. But I can't help but wonder if modern equipment isn't making things worse. 

 

 

 

Maybe so. My plastic gun has a 2 lb trigger, but it's an XDM so it's also got a grip safety and when I holster it I make sure my hand is not on the grip safety. I do recall a while back there was a lady in a Ben Stoger class who had a m&p that had a massaged trigger that went off in the holster while she was standing there. I do know there's been several reports about 320's going off in holsters, but the conditions around those reports are fairly murky at this point. It was Leo's, with what I would assume would be factory guns and not race guns with their triggers worked over.

[BritinUSA]

I don't think the poundage is the main issue; Its rather a lack of training and competence. I was at a match in England many years ago when a police officer shot themselves in the leg using a CZ. He kept his finger on the trigger while he holstered - picture it in your mind - some people are just dumb.

 

Personally I never saw any benefit in a sub 2lb trigger pull. The trigger reset at low weights always seemed slow and mushy to me. I preferred a 2 to 2.5lb pull with a firm, positive reset. 

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

I don't think the poundage is the main issue; Its rather a lack of training and competence. I was at a match in England many years ago when a police officer shot themselves in the leg using a CZ. He kept his finger on the trigger while he holstered - picture it in your mind - some people are just dumb.

 

Personally I never saw any benefit in a sub 2lb trigger pull. The trigger reset at low weights always seemed slow and mushy to me. I preferred a 2 to 2.5lb pull with a firm, positive reset. 

 

It likely is lack of training, or maybe just a little complacency or neglect in the moment. I think mixing lower levels of competence with lighter triggers might be a issue too. Hopefully it was just a spot of bad luck, because if we have many more of these I wouldn't be surprised if the Rifle range guys don't shut down pistol matches at the club.  

 

31 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Maybe so. My plastic gun has a 2 lb trigger, but it's an XDM so it's also got a grip safety and when I holster it I make sure my hand is not on the grip safety. I do recall a while back there was a lady in a Ben Stoger class who had a m&p that had a massaged trigger that went off in the holster while she was standing there. I do know there's been several reports about 320's going off in holsters, but the conditions around those reports are fairly murky at this point. It was Leo's, with what I would assume would be factory guns and not race guns with their triggers worked over.

 

My understanding both of these were 320's, which have no external safety at all and I guess if you dial out the pretravel probably don't have any internal safety either. 

 

34 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

All this has been legal in USPSA for years with no issue to speak of. I wouldn't sweat it too much

 

True, but neither are really common in USPSA either. Locally AIWB wont be a issue because it's not allowed still. 

[kneelingatlas]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

The strikers are basically 100% cocked, or really close to it now... ...Most of us would say running a SAO gun with out a manual safety would be bad, and is against the rules.

 

You bring up a really good point. We DQ shooters for holstering a SAO pistol with the safety off, so do we DQ someone shooting a striker fired pistol on which the factory safety features no longer function as designed due to the aftermarket fire control parts they installed?

I'm not intimately familiar with the safety features on striker fired guns, do they still work with a 2# aftermarket trigger kit?

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, kneelingatlas said:

 

You bring up a really good point. We DQ shooters for holstering a SAO pistol with the safety off, so do we DQ someone shooting a striker fired pistol on which the factory safety features no longer function as designed due to the aftermarket fire control parts they installed?

I'm not intimately familiar with the safety features on striker fired guns, do they still work with a 2# aftermarket trigger kit?

 

I'm honestly not sure either, certainly not as it would apply to so many combinations. I do recall reading somewhere here that Gray guns didn't want to put a pre travel adjustment on their 320 trigger for that reason. But there are other triggers on the market that have that adjustment. 

[RJH]

16 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I'm honestly not sure either, certainly not as it would apply to so many combinations. I do recall reading somewhere here that Gray guns didn't want to put a pre travel adjustment on their 320 trigger for that reason. But there are other triggers on the market that have that adjustment. 

I do know you can get a Glock trigger that is pre-travel adjustable and adjust it enough that the striker safety, at least I think it's the striker safety doesn't work anymore

[Racinready300ex]

17 minutes ago, RJH said:

I do know you can get a Glock trigger that is pre-travel adjustable and adjust it enough that the striker safety, at least I think it's the striker safety doesn't work anymore

 

Good point. I think I knew that just forgot it. 

 

It sounds like the new Timney triggers put the Glock trigger at fully cocked making it essentially a SAO. But, they say the safety's remain. Not sure if that depends on how it's adjusted or not. I guess this is how they get the really light pull in the glock. 

[CC3D]

54 minutes ago, kneelingatlas said:

do they still work with a 2# aftermarket trigger kit?

It is very, very easy to unintentionally disable some of the safeties in a glock by fiddling with the pre travel/ over-travel etc. 

 

I agree with the original post, I would say that a striker fired trigger with disabled safety features (whether intentional or not) is akin to running a single action without a safety. Interesting point OP. And lord, 2 people shot themselves at your local in the span of a year? Something isn't right there. 

[CC3D]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Not sure if that depends on how it's adjusted or not.

Johnny glock has some great videos about trigger modifications and making sure the safeties are still functional. It's very easy to test if they still work after adjustment, but I would venture to guess many may not know about the importance of doing so. Part of the problem with how easy glocks are to upgrade, is how easy they are to upgrade. 

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, CC3D said:

It is very, very easy to unintentionally disable some of the safeties in a glock by fiddling with the pre travel/ over-travel etc. 

 

I agree with the original post, I would say that a striker fired trigger with disabled safety features (whether intentional or not) is akin to running a single action without a safety. Interesting point OP. And lord, 2 people shot themselves at your local in the span of a year? Something isn't right there. 

 

Span of like 2 months. We had one AD last year on the draw that I'm aware of, no one hurt. I shot my first match there in 2011 and this is the first year with a incident like that. 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Racinready300ex

[CC3D]

Wow. What do you think is the cause? An issue with the striker guns or more with how the club is run? Also curious to know if they were newer shooters. 

[Southpaw]

Pretty much all striker fired guns are safe as they come from the factory.  Whether they're still safe after modification will depend...I've seen a number of aftermarket trigger components that will defeat internal safeties.

 

This doesn't just apply to striker fired guns. It's possible to render hammer fired guns unsafe as well with certain modifications. I don't recall if we ever found out the whole story, but there was that RO in NY who died a year or so ago from a dropped CZ and most of the speculation was on modifications that made it no longer drop safe.

 

Also, almost all striker fired guns besides Glocks are SAO with fully cocked strikers. That doesn't make them unsafe, as long as they have sufficient and functioning internal safeties.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, Southpaw said:

Pretty much all striker fired guns are safe as they come from the factory.  Whether they're still safe after modification will depend...I've seen a number of aftermarket trigger components that will defeat internal safeties.

 

This doesn't just apply to striker fired guns. It's possible to render hammer fired guns unsafe as well with certain modifications. I don't recall if we ever found out the whole story, but there was that RO in NY who died a year or so ago from a dropped CZ and most of the speculation was on modifications that made it no longer drop safe.

 

Also, almost all striker fired guns besides Glocks are SAO with fully cocked strikers. That doesn't make them unsafe, as long as they have sufficient and functioning internal safeties.

 

You said what I was going to say.  Particularly the second paragraph.  And who knows how safe are some of the heavily tuned up 2011s that people are running with, without engaging the thumb safety?

 

Agree 100% with everything except the last paragraph.  There are quite a bit of striker fired handguns that do not have a fully cocked striker.  CZ and Arex are two that come to mind immediately.  The P-10 series are absolutely not fully tensioned.  The OEM armorer's manual is very clear about that and it's pretty obvious once you see how one works.

 

I'm not even sure what the point of this thread is.

[CC3D]

Right, but those guns you're referring to are designed around a firing system with a fully cocked striker. Their safeties are mechanically designed around a gun with a fully cocked striker. Glock safeties are not, tampering with a factory glock firing system to make it function with a fully cocked striker is not the same as a gun that comes designed that way from the factory. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

29 minutes ago, CC3D said:

Right, but those guns you're referring to are designed around a firing system with a fully cocked striker. Their safeties are mechanically designed around a gun with a fully cocked striker. Glock safeties are not, tampering with a factory glock firing system to make it function with a fully cocked striker is not the same as a gun that comes designed that way from the factory. 

 

Did you miss the part about HEAVILY TUNED 2011s?

 

I wasn't talking about stock ones.

[Racinready300ex]

11 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Did you miss the part about HEAVILY TUNED 2011s?

 

I wasn't talking about stock ones.

 

 

But, that tuned 2011 must have a functioning safety which is checked a chrono at majors. If you holster with out using that safety it's a DQ. We just assume striker guns safeties are all functioning properly.

 

Almost ever case of someone being shot at a match that I've heard of has been self inflected during either drawing or holstering. So it's certainly a area to not be taking lightly. Perhaps 2011's are a issue to, and should be looked at. 

[motosapiens]

17 hours ago, Southpaw said:

Pretty much all striker fired guns are safe as they come from the factory. 

I still won't carry one, but that probably just means I'm a fudd. My boss shot himself in the calf reholstering his (factory stock) backup gun last year. I think you *always* have to be careful holstering a loaded gun, but I think you have to be extra careful with a modern striker-fired gun and especially so with any kind of concealment holster.

[RJH]

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I still won't carry one, but that probably just means I'm a fudd. My boss shot himself in the calf reholstering his (factory stock) backup gun last year. I think you *always* have to be careful holstering a loaded gun, but I think you have to be extra careful with a modern striker-fired gun and especially so with any kind of concealment holster.

 

Curious here, you won't carry a 320, or any striker gun, or any gun without a safety?

[motosapiens]

39 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Curious here, you won't carry a 320, or any striker gun, or any gun without a safety?

my preference is DA or manual safety. that's probably because i compete with cz and 1911/2011 guns. my wife shoots a sig legion and when I shoot it i feel like I have to pay extra attention to it. but I'm a fudd i guess.

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

my preference is DA or manual safety. that's probably because i compete with cz and 1911/2011 guns. my wife shoots a sig legion and when I shoot it i feel like I have to pay extra attention to it. but I'm a fudd i guess.

 

I don't know, I shoot and carry a crapper XDM. I know it's been documented and proven that the grip safety will get me killed in the streets, but I do like the fact that it adds an extra layer of protection while holstering so I don't shoot myself in the pecker or legs accidentally. I know, I know, with proper training you would never shoot yourself in the pecker or legs accidentally, but it does seem to happen from time to time to people