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Primers?


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7 hours ago, Kema said:

It's stressing all ammo production and is priority 1. I happily have a few year break and support Ukraine. 

 

 

We never had a shortage during Vietnam that I can remember and we used a great deal of Ammunition there, so It may have nothing to do with a war.

Edited by dannyd
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2 hours ago, dannyd said:

We never had a shortage during Vietnam that I can remember and we used a great deal of Ammunition there, so It may have nothing to do with a war.

 

this is one reason I think the shootin war in Ukraine is not  the cause of our current shortages.

the other reason is what was called a 'rounding error' amount to supply the reloading industry

 

I believe there is a term for refusing to supply what has become 'competition.'

 

I can believe that new gun owners caused a sharp spike in ammo demand.

that spike lasting 2 years is what happened in our recent past.

 

I expect a thousand primers will become about 50 dollars...

 

miranda

 

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1 hour ago, fraizer15 said:

I must have missed something.

I didn't and is ok.   I am strongly of the belief that some conclusions

are not tightly connected to fact as others.

the overall comments about the world's most desirable powders spring to mind.

 

If you truly didn't notice, you may have decided it was speaking honestly.

 

testosterone, my opinion is that for primers we do not have a level playing field.

Imported primers struggle to get into this country

so if there is an artificial crimp in our supply side  the prices will go up.

and given how many have said we reloaders are but a speck on the

back side of ammo indusdry... the supply has no reason to be

choked or crimped or reduced.

 

miranda

 

 

 

 

Edited by Miranda
lfet out an important word.
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There once was a thread of smart-Azs.

I'll try to find it.

 

there is some agreement that primers are becoming available.

and some negotiation is on the table as per price.

 

There is also a question of whom we should blame for our current pains.

 I think olin and customs are high on the list.

 

others have been mentioned.

 

 

thar!   everyone up to speed?

 

miranda

 

 

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On 9/9/2022 at 7:12 AM, dannyd said:

We never had a shortage during Vietnam that I can remember and we used a great deal of Ammunition there, so It may have nothing to do with a war.

There have been primer shortages during:

Vietnam

Desert Storm,  1990-1991

Invasion of Afghanistan,  2001-2021

   

Each last about 12-18 months, and prices never came back as low as before the shortage.

 

Our present shortage includes: Ukraine Conflict, Covid lockdowns, Record gun sales and inflation.

It's much more complicated and complex than the other shortages I have lived through.

When it's all over, primer prices will be higher ($58 /1000 Federal, just my guess) and we will all stock up.

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I have some that vintage and older that are still full. In all honesty they were in a box of stuff that I got from a friend that had passed away. Here’s CCI packaging over the years. Yes they are full. 
9F64F32B-FF9D-4340-BF79-C18B139A7EC7.thumb.jpeg.0c693657ee1758503161111700569fc1.jpeg

Edited by Farmer
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23 hours ago, GMM50 said:

There have been primer shortages during:

Vietnam

Desert Storm,  1990-1991

Invasion of Afghanistan,  2001-2021

   

Each last about 12-18 months, and prices never came back as low as before the shortage.

 

Our present shortage includes: Ukraine Conflict, Covid lockdowns, Record gun sales and inflation.

It's much more complicated and complex than the other shortages I have lived through.

When it's all over, primer prices will be higher ($58 /1000 Federal, just my guess) and we will all stock up.

Don't forget the billions of rounds left in Afghanastan, they have to be replaced.  FWIW I believe that's the real reason why the military leaves a million dollar piece of equipment because it's too expensive to ship back, the defense industries bonus of replacing all of the equipment & supplies.

Just read a report that said so much of our supplies, ammunition and equipment have been sent to Ukraine that our military couldn't fight a war.  Another report states only 30% of the aide sent gets to where it was intended.  The rest is syphoned off and sold on the black market.  Campaign donations should be soaring.

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I can't tell you why a .22LR is $0.07 vs $0.06. 

 

But I can mention that primers are used on bullets for sale.  There has been a large push for NATO, government, police, rounds to be completed during and after the pandemic.  Also there has be 4 million more new gun owners that require bullets to shoot.  Most primer manufactures seem to sell their primers to the major bullet manufacturers to be used in completed rounds rather than sell them to reloaders.  Since the supply of primers is down, the price goes up.

Edited by SnipTheDog
zero
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2 hours ago, SnipTheDog said:

I can't tell you why a .22LR is $0.07 vs $0.06. 

 

But I can mention that primers are used on bullets for sale.  There has been a large push for NATO, government, police, rounds to be completed during and after the pandemic.  Also there has be 4 million more new gun owners that require bullets to shoot.  Most primer manufactures seem to sell their primers to the major bullet manufacturers to be used in completed rounds rather than sell them to reloaders.  Since the supply of primers is down, the price goes up.

Also packaging has gone up with everything else. Beings Vista pretty much makes everything now, except for Olin, they don’t necessarily have to package them for in house use, or are handled differently. I imagine they go right from production to their reloading stations. Kinda good news is that we’re seeing more loaded ammo on the shelves so maybe they’ll get kinda caught up. It would be interesting to sit down with one of the head honchos and just get the straight story about how all this stuff works. 

Edited by Farmer
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and away we go...

 

I took a run at finding costs for making primers.

(well how do you decide on your Biz plan?)

The expense is more for buildings/bunkers.


From all I can tell the chemicals are not a price driver.

The need for safe processing is a big part of the costs.

If you ignore the infrastructure, the automated primer
assembly thing about which no one will share info, and packaging machines, etc...
then primers are inexpensive.


Each one is into the sub penny price point.
That number has room for wiggle because I can't
find prices for some chemicals to see what compounds
can be purchased in place of onsite synthesis
and I am pretty sure large ish amounts of
some chemicals may be cheaper than fischer may
charge for those chemicals....

 

I also do not have a good guess for exactly how many
primers one can fill with a pound or gallon of composition.

my guess was that 2 Grains per primer as a good ball park.
so the brass for a primer may be the most expensive part.
the box? I do not know.  

 

you may take my word for this...
the cost of manufacture is not what drives the price of primers.

 

I see a profit in making primers...
the investment for the infrastructure, is a bit unclear.

miranda

 

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2 hours ago, Farmer said:

Also packaging has gone up with everything else. Beings Vista pretty much makes everything now, except for Olin, they don’t necessarily have to package them for in house use, or are handled differently. I imagine they go right from production to their reloading stations. Kinda good news is that we’re seeing more loaded ammo on the shelves so maybe they’ll get kinda caught up. It would be interesting to sit down with one of the head honchos and just get the straight story about how all this stuff works. 

 

From what I can tell:

  • Vista controls Remington and Federal.
  • Olin owns CCI and Winchester
  • Fiocci is Italian owned, but produces out of Missouri for sale in US.
  • Cheddite is Italian and primarily in the shotgun market AFAIK.
  • Argentinian primers are available
  • Unis Ginex  are out of Bosnia and Herzegovina Ginex
Edited by SnipTheDog
ched
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37 minutes ago, SnipTheDog said:

 

From what I can tell:

  • Vista controls Remington and Federal.
  • Olin owns CCI and Winchester
  • Fiocci is Italian owned, but produces out of Missouri for sale in US.
  • Cheddite is Italian and primarily in the shotgun market AFAIK.
  • Argentinian primers are available
  • Unis Ginex  are out of Bosnia and Herzegovina Ginex

I believe Vista has CCI. Plus they own Alliant. Convenient eh?

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13 minutes ago, Farmer said:

I believe Vista has CCI. Plus they own Alliant. Convenient eh?

Yep, pretty sure you're right about CCI and Vista.  On CCI's web page, there's a link that goes back to Vista Outdoor.  RebateLink

 

I don't know much about Alliant other than they make powder.  Do they do primers too?

Edited by SnipTheDog
alliant
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