Interesting Target

[robertg5322]

This target came out of our ranges storage, anyone have any info on it?

 

Note the little "C" zones in the lower right corners of the B & D zones.

 

Has USPA/IPSC if you zoom in.

 

Thanks.

 

Edited March 13, 2022 by robertg5322

[robertg5322]

Head got cut off in pic, it has a B zone and in the head "A" zone box it has "A/B".

 

I'll post a better pic later.

[Schutzenmeister]

You've got yourself a collectable here ... It appears to be an early IPSC target from the late 70's or very early 80's.

[robertg5322]

1983 is embossed on the bottom,

 

Thanks.

[Schutzenmeister]

Acknowledged ... I believe the basic design for this iteration goes back to the late 70's.  I'm trying to find an image of what was once referred to as a "Florida 8," or something like that for comparison.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Schutzenmeister

[George Jones]

Before the advent of the non-scoring border.

[robertg5322]

56 minutes ago, George Jones said:

Before the advent of the non-scoring border.

And check out the rounded shoulders.

[Schutzenmeister]

BTW ... The "little C zones" are a copyright notice.  They have nothing to do with scoring.

 

Now that I see the entire target, I think it is the generation just after the Florida 8.  IIRC, the Florida 8 had a circular A Zone in the top box ... Hence the designation "Florida 8."

 

@George Jones ... I'm just dirt.  I know you're older than I am!  I thought I remembered someone posting pictures of them a few years ago; but darned if I can find them anymore.

[robertg5322]

17 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

BTW ... The "little C zones" are a copyright notice.  They have nothing to do with scoring.

 

Now that I see the entire target, I think it is the generation just after the Florida 8.  IIRC, the Florida 8 had a circular A Zone in the top box ... Hence the designation "Florida 8."

 

@George Jones ... I'm just dirt.  I know you're older than I am!  I thought I remembered someone posting pictures of them a few years ago; but darned if I can find them anymore.

Why have two separate copyright notices on a target?

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, it just seems odd that there would be two copyright notices on a single target, unless the copyright notice is for the text following it on the target and not the target itself.

[terrydoc]

2 hours ago, robertg5322 said:

Why have two separate copyright notices on a target?

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, it just seems odd that there would be two copyright notices on a single target, unless the copyright notice is for the text following it on the target and not the target itself.

Why would there be a 2nd C zone inside the D zone?

[robertg5322]

13 minutes ago, terrydoc said:

Why would there be a 2nd C zone inside the D zone?

I don't get the little perforated circles with the "C" in the same size and font as the zone enumerators.

 

I sort of get a "C" zone inside the "D" zone theoretically, some bonus maybe. I know that's not it's purpose, but logically it makes sense, at least more sense than a "C" zone inside the "B" zone.  I don't get a "C" zone inside the "B" zone at all, what, a penalty for hitting a random spot?. Neither of the two options (multiple copyright symbols or a "C" zone inside the "B" or "D" zone) makes sense to me.

 

Thanks.

[rishii]

It might be the old item? target

 My club started in the mid 80’s and used the Florida 8 until they were outlawed in favor of the current USPSA target

i seem to remember the Florida 8 had a smaller A zone than the item target with the rumor being that it was set by placing a plate or pie pan on the target and using to draw the circle

 

 

[Schutzenmeister]

18 hours ago, robertg5322 said:

Why have two separate copyright notices on a target?

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, it just seems odd that there would be two copyright notices on a single target, unless the copyright notice is for the text following it on the target and not the target itself.

 

I'm not a copyright attorney ... I don't even play one on TV.  Nevertheless, I promise you, that is exactly what they are.  Why 2?  Who cares ...

[Schutzenmeister]

This took some hunting ...

 

From the June 1985 issue of Front Sight, p.39 you can see an ad for the "New Florida 8" targets:

FS 1985-06 p39.pdf   If this doesn't load for you, go to https://uspsa.org/magazine/display//1985-06 and scroll to p.39.  This appears to be the target (different manufacturer) in the OP.

 

 

I still cannot find an actual image of the original "Florida 8" target but it looked something like this (but with A/B/C/D scoring marks) ... This isn't exact, but it gives you an idea:

 

[robertg5322]

Cool info, thanks for digging it up.

 

The target in the pic has a border, the pic of the one I posted doesn't. And why is the head "A" box labeled "A/B"?

 

Thanks.

 

G

Edited March 14, 2022 by robertg5322

[Schutzenmeister]

Please don't be a pain.

 

The target YOU posted appears to have been made circa 1983, based on what I see.  The image I found is from 1985.

 

If YOU can find an EXACT match in 2022, more power to you.  There may have been a couple of minor changes in those two years ... I don't know.

 

This was the best I was able to find.  Your target is clearly a version of the "New Florida-8" design from the mid-80's.  You have a 40 year old (or so) antique.  Frame it!  It's a rare find.

 

p.s.: I just took another look at your image.  The head isn't well focused, but it does appear to be marked A/B.  Scoring rules were a little different 40 years ago.  You'd have to find a complete copy of the rules from back then to make sense of it.  

Edited March 15, 2022 by Schutzenmeister
Added info

[robertg5322]

Just now, Schutzenmeister said:

Please don't be a pain.

 

The target YOU posted appears to have been made circa 1983, based on what I see.  The image I found is from 1985.

 

If YOU can find an EXACT match in 2022, more power to you.  There may have been a couple of minor changes in those two years ... I don't know.

 

This was the best I was able to find.  Your target is clearly a version of the "New Florida-8" design from the mid-80's.  You have a 40 year old (or so) antique.  Frame it!  It's a rare find.

Lighten up Ace, I was asking questions, not arguing or debating points.

 

Sheesh.

[-JCN-]

12 hours ago, robertg5322 said:

Lighten up Ace, I was asking questions, not arguing or debating points.

 

Sheesh.

You might be more respectful to someone who donated their time to help YOU. 

[robertg5322]

10 hours ago, -JCN- said:

You might be more respectful to someone who donated their time to help YOU. 

If he didn't lead with "Don't be a pain", you might have a point.

 

I was nothing but respectful and inquisitive prior to that. And frankly, all I told him to do was lighten up, hardly disrespectful considering his remark.

 

Good day Sir.

 

[PatJones]

On 3/14/2022 at 10:05 AM, Schutzenmeister said:

This took some hunting ...

 

From the June 1985 issue of Front Sight, p.39 you can see an ad for the "New Florida 8" targets:

FS 1985-06 p39.pdf   If this doesn't load for you, go to https://uspsa.org/magazine/display//1985-06 and scroll to p.39.  This appears to be the target (different manufacturer) in the OP.

 

 

It's out of the rulebook now, but looking at this target the whole "B zone as a Tiebreaker" thing makes more sense now.

 

Were the scoring zones scored with the same number of points as now? Major would have been an even bigger advantage with the little A and skinny D zones. That target is nearly all B/C

 

[robertg5322]

5 hours ago, PatJones said:

It's out of the rulebook now, but looking at this target the whole "B zone as a Tiebreaker" thing makes more sense now.

 

Were the scoring zones scored with the same number of points as now? Major would have been an even bigger advantage with the little A and skinny D zones. That target is nearly all B/C

 

That's the thought that came to my mind (tiebreaker making more sense).

Question on the head A/B in the A box, does that mean A in the rectangle inside the head, then B in the rest of the head?

[Schutzenmeister]

On 3/15/2022 at 6:25 PM, robertg5322 said:

If he didn't lead with "Don't be a pain", you might have a point.

 

I was nothing but respectful and inquisitive prior to that. And frankly, all I told him to do was lighten up, hardly disrespectful considering his remark.

 

Good day Sir.

 

 

Actually, I led with Please don't be a pain.  I know it's only one little word, but if you're going to criticize my reply then please quote me accurately.  

 

21 hours ago, PatJones said:

It's out of the rulebook now, but looking at this target the whole "B zone as a Tiebreaker" thing makes more sense now.

 

Were the scoring zones scored with the same number of points as now? Major would have been an even bigger advantage with the little A and skinny D zones. That target is nearly all B/C

 

 

Close ... The "tie breaker" (I believe) originally harkens back to a day when timing was generally done with a stopwatch and a stop plate.  (BTW, Power Factors were determined with a ballistic pendulum, not a chronograph and digital scale!)  It was also before the advent of the PC ... hence all scoring was done by hand, hopefully with a calculator, and the results tabulated manually.  Due to the inherent lack of "precision" in this methodology ties happened more often than today.  (Please don't get me started on the inherent fallacy of scores generated to 6 significant digits - e.g., stage points of 58.4689 - when one of the key input factors is only measured to 3 significant digits - e.g., a time of 6.82 seconds.  This is something no responsible statistician or scientist would ever contemplate!)  Therefore, the concept of A hits, B hits, etc. to break the tie was in the rules.

 

The closest I've ever seen this happening was the World Shoot in 2002 between 2nd and 3rd place in Open.  That difference was only 0.0006 match points (2870.5695 vs. 2870.5689)!  (From a purely scientific and statistical point of view, that should have been called a tie.  Someone - not me - calculated that a mere difference of a few feet between the shooter and the timer, given the speed of sound, could have accounted for the entire difference in the final results.  We clearly do not regulate the exact distance between the timer and the shooter in this sport ... simply isn't feasible!)

 

16 hours ago, robertg5322 said:

That's the thought that came to my mind (tiebreaker making more sense).

Question on the head A/B in the A box, does that mean A in the rectangle inside the head, then B in the rest of the head?

 

A reasonable question.  Full disclosure - I didn't enter the sport until 1993.  I never shot with the targets you show nor under the rules at that time, but this is my understanding from some who did.

 

1 - In the early days of IPSC, targets did not have non-scoring borders.  This led to some scoring difficulties and discrepancies ... and perhaps a little cheating, according to some sources ... hence a non-scoring border was added.  Apparently, this was in or around the mid-1980's.  Again, this was before my time.

 

2 - As to the A/B designation in the upper box on the target you posted ... and again, this is before my time, but is my understanding of what the rules were prior to about 1990. 

 

-- If the entire target was available (i.e., both head and torso) then the top box was all B Zone.

-- If only the head was available (i.e., no torso shot was available) then the inner box was scored as an A Zone and the rest as a B Zone.

 

Again, this is my understanding of the rules at that time, but it is from a time period before I actually started in the sport.  If you want a definitive explanation you'll either need to find someone who actually shot under those rules (Brian Enos actually comes to mind ...) or somewhere find a copy of the rules as they existed at that time.  They may be on this forum somewhere, but I've yet to find them.  Good luck in your search!

[Bakerjd]

All I know is it looks cool. I'd have it as wall art in my house. @Schutzenmeister your explanation makes a lot of sense to me. 

[robertg5322]

7 minutes ago, Bakerjd said:

All I know is it looks cool. I'd have it as wall art in my house. @Schutzenmeister your explanation makes a lot of sense to me. 

Yeah, making a frame for it and it'll be hanging in the cave.

[Schutzenmeister]