Chaos 2

[ChuckS]

17 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

I "think" its less stroke and a standard 2011.  Something similar to short stroking a 9mm AR?  As long as it remains reliable, a shorter stroke should lead to faster splits in theory.

Here is an archived thread on the subject. Unlike PCC, stroking is actually increasing the slide travel. I asked an open shooter about that with a comparison to why we short stroke a PCC. It seems counter intuitive from the PCC standpoint. He just said "it's better" than a non-stroked open gun.  

 

 

 

[shred]

The original point of 'stroking' 2011s that Dawson did long before the 20teen gunsmith spats was to improve reliability by giving the magazine more time to lift the ammo stack and get the top round into place before a short light slide came flying back by.

 

Handling differences are along for the ride.  You can also stuff the space full of buffs to cushion the impact if your mags feed ok at regular slide travel.

 

[caspian guy]

10 minutes ago, shred said:

The original point of 'stroking' 2011s that Dawson did long before the 20teen gunsmith spats was to improve reliability by giving the magazine more time to lift the ammo stack and get the top round into place before a short light slide came back by.

 

Handling differences are along for the ride.  You can also stuff the space full of buffs to cushion the impact if your mags feed ok at regular slide travel.

 

Shred is correct as usual.

[Boomstick303]

12 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

They lost money on them.

 

This the reason the new gun probably costs 8k. To cover warranty work when they do break. The fact they have their own machines  is probably factored into the 8k cost. 

[Ak12]

20 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

This the reason the new gun probably costs 8k. To cover warranty work when they do break. The fact they have their own machines  is probably factored into the 8k cost. 

 

I thought Atlas' warranty is only for 1 year?

[scduckman03]

Does any gun builder offer more than 1 year warranty? 

[aandabooks]

[kitestir]

From Atlas’ site:

 

Warranty

 

All firearms manufactured by Atlas Gunworks are covered by a one year muzzle-to-magwell warranty. Should any issues arise; Atlas Gunworks will cover two day shipping to and from the factory. This warranty covers everything excluding over pressure from improper ammunition.

 

After the first year, your pistol is covered under a Limited Lifetime Warranty. This covers any and all manufacturer defects and premature wear. This warrantee does not cover normal wear items, or damage caused by the user from improper springs or ammunition, or a combination thereof. The user is responsible for shipping to and from the facility for service work.

[Boomstick303]

Just about all open guns sit on the market for awhile. 9mm open guns seem to sit on the market and seem to sell for less than their 38 SC counterparts. I have watched SVI open guns sit on here for months. The reality is the market for open guns is small. Maybe the smallest sector of all guns sales. Also how many people are willing to gamble on buying a used an open gun. You have no idea what the actual round count is, if the gun was built properly to begin with and if the current user has any idea on how so load major ammo and maintain the gun. Atlas guns are not the only guns that have issues in the resale market when it comes to open guns. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Posvar]

23 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Just about all open guns sit on the market for awhile. 9mm open guns seem to sit on the market and seem to sell for less than their 38 SC counterparts. I have watched SVI open guns sit on here for months. The reality is the market for open guns is small. Maybe the smallest sector of all guns sales. Also how many people are willing to gamble on buying an open gun. You have no idea what the actual round count is, if the gun was built properly to begin with and if the current user has any idea on how so load major ammo and maintain the gun. Atlas guns are not the only guns that have issues in the resale market when it comes to open guns. 

Yes, they often sit for awhile. Everything you said about resale of 9mm versus 38sc especially on this forum is backwards…..at least based on my experience and watching the classifieds for years. If anyone knows me they know I have experience in selling shiny guns. Just can’t resist when they are up for sale. I would rather offload five 9mm major guns than one 38sc. I agree with everything else that you said.

[zzt]

I must just be lucky.  I bought my first 2011 Open gun from a gent in NY.  He told me all about the gun and made it a point to identify areas that were not perfect.  I shot that gun for two seasons without issue.  As long as I kept it lubed with Weapon Shield, it would even run at 25 deg.  It started life as an STI Edge Limited gun.  The owner bought all SVI internals and sent it to Gans for conversion. It went down to Tripp for chrome plating.  All I ever had to do to that gun was repair a worn thumb safety. 

 

I decided I wanted a backup.  So I bought another used Open gun after going through the particulars with the owner.  It ran 100% and I didn't do anything to it except put all new springs in it.

 

I eventually sold the main gun for a little more than I paid for it.  I sold the backup for exactly what I paid for it.  The buyers are extremely happy with them.  One of them even wrote asking if I ever had another Open gun to sell, please let him know first.

 

I also disagree with the notion that Open guns are delicate.  I shoot with a lot of Open shooters.  Their guns run 100%.  The only ones having problems were shooting DVCs.  Most of them are gone now.

 

I had to go to my backup gun twice this season.  The first time the lever on my Dawson tool less guide rod broke and jammed the slide open.  I immediately replaced all the Dawsons for solid one-piece rods.  The second time the Dawson recoil spring cap separated and allowed the recoil spring to shoot forward.  The slide wouldn't close.  They got replaced with beefier plugs in all my guns.  They were the only delicate parts in my guns.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by zzt

[Sarge]

2 minutes ago, zzt said:

I must just be lucky. 
MY OPEN GUNS RUN NEARLY PERFECTLY AS WELL.

 

I also disagree with the notion that Open guns are delicate.  I shoot with a lot of Open shooters.  There guns run 100%.  The only ones having problems were running DVC’s. 
OR GUYS WHO CONSTANTLY TINKER WITH THEM.

 

 

 

[Posvar]

6 minutes ago, Sarge said:

 

Agreed. Mine run like boring .40 limited guns 

[Balakay]

1 hour ago, Posvar said:

Yes, they often sit for awhile. Everything you said about resale of 9mm versus 38sc especially on this forum is backwards…..at least based on my experience and watching the classifieds for years. If anyone knows me they know I have experience in selling shiny guns. Just can’t resist when they are up for sale. I would rather offload five 9mm major guns than one 38sc. I agree with everything else that you said.

I agree. 38 is harder to sell than 9 major. I have 2 open guns that started as 38sc and have been re-barreled in 9mm. Using the same powder and bullet, loaded to the same PF, I can’t tell a significant difference in terms of feeding reliability recoil impulse, on the timer or match placement. 

[Bakerjd]

5 hours ago, scduckman03 said:

Does any gun builder offer more than 1 year warranty? 

Don't know specifics but after shooting with quite a few people who shoot open and shoot a lot I know there are a couple builders I wouldn't expect to have a good warranty experience with. Atlas being one of them. I base this on a couple things. Experiences friends of mine have had. And his attitude both in the YouTube vids and conversations I've been a party to. Arrogance is not a good quality if you are in the customer service buisness.

[Bakerjd]

6 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

This the reason the new gun probably costs 8k. To cover warranty work when they do break. The fact they have their own machines  is probably factored into the 8k cost. 

Those machines are a part of business. If business is run correctly they should pay themselves off rather quickly for reasons I already stated. And honestly even if they are still paying for the CNC equipment the material costs should be less then a shop that sources all parts. I'm still not seeing a solid reason for a $8k price range. 

[Boomstick303]

9 hours ago, Posvar said:

Everything you said about resale of 9mm versus 38sc especially on this forum is backwards

 

At what price point?  Guns around the $3000 range seem to sell rather quick including 9mm major guns. When you start talking about the SVI, and Atlas or other 2011s in the $5000-$7000 range it seems to me the 38sc move quicker. Maybe there are fewer 9mm guns vs 38sc at this price range.  That’s what it seems to me. I have only been around for a minute so my observations could be taken with a grain of salt in regards to this,  I could certainly be wrong. 

 

Forgive me if I made it seem that open guns are delicate?  How could they be when dealing with the PF the have to produce to shoot major PF.  My point was open guns are more finicky than most other guns.  Am I wrong in this assertion?  Well maybe not PCCs. Lmao. I also understand that a lot goes into getting most 2011s to get them to run in a reliable manner. You do have to know about a lot of other variables to watch for.  For many on this board you know what you are doing and how to set them up.  For a lot of other people out there shooting them I am not sure they know all of those nuances.  Maybe I’m wrong, but I see more problems with open major guns than any other guns locally, and the rare instances when I have seen at one Nationals I attended where they could be used at USPSA 2 Gun Nationals last year and a couple of 2 gun matches I attended last year. 

 

Also, I think we can all agree the life span of an Open 2011 is probably not the same as a Limited Gun.  Or am I incorrect in that assertion as well?

Edited January 17, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Boomstick303]

5 hours ago, Bakerjd said:

I'm still not seeing a solid reason for a $8k price range

 

Maybe the reason is they really don’t want to make them. Much like a contractor that has more business than they have time to accommodate the project they are quoting a price for, maybe Atlas came up with a price point that made it worth their for them to build an open gun. How many times have your heard of contractors quote outrageous prices to complete a job?  It’s for this very reason. The price they quote is the price the they feel it worth it to take on the additional work. 

 

We we will really ever know. The fact they are not taking orders for customers and intend to go the batch route is a bit telling I think. 

[Bakerjd]

@Boomstick303 I think your correct that they really don't haveuvh interest in building these. 

[Kema]

Maybe they just had Chaos price x 2 in their mind

[zzt]

8 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

Also, I think we can all agree the life span of an Open 2011 is probably not the same as a Limited Gun.  Or am I incorrect in that assertion as well?

 

Yes.  It is not uncommon to see Open guns with 50k ~ 100k through them.  I shoot with an M Open shooter who has been shooting the same gun for twelve years.  He shoots 4-6 USPSA matches a month, plus Area and Nats.  AND his dot is slide mounted.  He shoots a 124 JHP over WAC for 170+PF.

 

My first 2011 Open gun saw approx. 40k by the original owner.  I added another 18k.  I sold it locally.  It is still going strong.

 

How long an Open gun will last depends on how well it was built in the first place, and how well it was maintained.   It also depends on the quality of the slide and how stupid you get with slide lightening.  Unfortunately, there are a lot of slides out there that are going to crack no matter how carefully the gun was built and maintained.  That's not because they are on Open guns.  Limited slides crack also.  It is because the slides themselves are defective.  One builder got rid of their 'defective' inventory by offering the bare slides on sale for a low price.  In addition they offered buy one get one.  There are a whole lot of manufacturers out there that I would NEVER consider buying a slide from.  Every time I have done so in the past out of desperation, I've regretted it.

 

Then there are the internals.  If you are using good billet or bar stock parts from EGW, Extreme Engineering, etc. you will not have problems.  

 

Barrels:  some barrels are going to be shot out by 50k.  Others not.  I don't have enough experience to know why.  For example, my Custom Shop Sig 1911 Tacops 45 shot beautifully for 45k.  It was my competition and bullseye gun.  Now at around 48k, groups have opened up considerably.  I'm using the same bullseye load, so it can't be the ammo.  The Open gun I mentioned earlier still shot same hole groups at 15 yards after 58k.  Go figure.

 

I built both of my 2011 Open guns with high quality parts.  The main gun has almost 20k through it.  The backup was shot in three matches, just to see if I had to tweak anything before finishing.  I figure I'll shoot another 48k~50k out of the main gun before I hang up my holster.  I doubt I'll have any problems with the gun.  I'll change springs periodically.  That's about all.

[lacivilian]

On 1/15/2022 at 2:09 PM, ltdmstr said:

 

Because they're cranking them out as fast as they can, so I doubt they're taking the time to test each one individually.  Also, I've encountered people who've purchased Atlas guns and had problems with them from the start, which leads me to believe they weren't function tested before they went out the door.

There is zero chance my previous atlas was function fired before leaving the shop, I had baffle strikes occurring on the first shot. 

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, lacivilian said:

There is zero chance my previous atlas was function fired before leaving the shop, I had baffle strikes occurring on the first shot. 

function fired is not the same as sighted in and shooting for groups.  lots of builders function fire without having the dot on the gun, so unless your baffle strikes were horrific and causing the gun to not run it very likely was fired. 

 

not defending them just saying there are many things you would likely not find when all your doing is a mag dump into to berm to make sure it actually goes bang.

[ltdmstr]

1 hour ago, MikeBurgess said:

function fired is not the same as sighted in and shooting for groups.  lots of builders function fire without having the dot on the gun, so unless your baffle strikes were horrific and causing the gun to not run it very likely was fired.

 

Not sure what baffle strikes have to do with sighting in the gun.  It's because the comp is out of alignment or not reamed properly, or something mechanical.  And function testing would certainly reveal baffle strikes.  Same for a gun that has the wrong slide stop as mentioned in a previous post.  And same for the non-running gun I witnessed.

[MikeBurgess]

44 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

 

Not sure what baffle strikes have to do with sighting in the gun.  It's because the comp is out of alignment or not reamed properly, or something mechanical.  And function testing would certainly reveal baffle strikes.  Same for a gun that has the wrong slide stop as mentioned in a previous post.  And same for the non-running gun I witnessed.

All I was meaning is I've seen several guns run happily with baffle strikes and even looking at the comp to try to figure out if thats the cause of the accuracy issues we were seeing did not show anything super obvious. so a gun that deliver with baffle strikes while in no way is acceptable does not mean that it was not test fired. 

 

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by MikeBurgess
missing word