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Full length S die sizing an M dies


DIYguy

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Quick question.  I've been using the Redding full length S sizing dies with neck bushings for several of my rifle calibers. Picked up the Lyman M die for my 6.5 cm and about to pick up an M Die for 223. So far Ive been using the internal sizing  mandrel that's part of the decapping rod with the neck bushing.  If I add the step of using the M die to uniform the internal neck dimension should I skip the sizing button and just do the decap only insert. This would still be the external neck bushing but then run the brass again with the M die for the interior dimension.  Single stage Forster press.

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The object of using the bushing die is so you don’t have to use the expander plug. The bushing sizes the neck to the .002-.003 under and your done. It reduces the risk of the expander plug pulling the shoulder forward and also you don’t have to lube the inside of the necks. If you still want to use the expander, buy one of the Redding carbide expander balls. Does a much smoother job. To me the only reason to use a M die for rifle would be for cast bullets unless something has changed that I’ve missed. 

Edited by Farmer
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If this is for a single stage press, about the only reason I could see somebody using an M die is if they wanted to knock off any inside burr from the case mouth….left over from trimming.

 

Me? Personally?  If using a single stage and a Redding S type die with a neck bushing, I would go with a “slick” decapping rod (no expander ball) if that’s possible.  If the decapping rod assembly still forces you to use an expander ball, then I would go to the next size down which should be whatever a .204 Ruger uses.

 

 

 

 

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Best wishes for 2022!

 

Over the years I experimented with several brands and types of sizing dies in .223 (amongst other calibers) and concerning internal neck sizing found the following. If you want to do internal neck sizing in a seperate operation I get better results (less runout) using a Sinclair mandrel/expander than the Lyman M-die. I use a (very) little Imperial/Redding sizing wax for lubrication but you can also opt for a dry neck lube if prefered. Lubrication of the inside of the neck does make a difference when compaired to no lube at all. Also I polished the expander buttons and mandrels

 

The best runout figures using full length dies with a expander button are achieved with Forster FL dies and the figures are almost identical to the Sinclair mandrel. The results with Forster FL dies are considerably better than with any other brand FL die (where the sizing button sits lower on the decapping rod) I tested. I also oberved this in .308W en 6BR.

 

The dies I tested (full length):

 

- Redding S-die (FL) with .244 and .245 bushings

- Forster FL (3 of them)

- Dillon FL

- RCBS FL

- RCBS FL small base

- Lee FL

- Mighty Armory FL

 

Mandrels/expanders:

 

- Sinclair mandrel (.221, .222 and .223. For a semi-auto I would not go larger than the .222 to retain proper neck tension. With the .222 mandrel the 

   internal neck diameter will spring back to .221 with most brands of brass I used leaving .003 necktension)

 -Lyman M-die

 

When I want to use my Mk7 Evo press with the bullet feeder I have to use the M-die as it is the only one that can flare the case mouth slighty but this does have a slighty negative effect on the neck runout. (But then again, do I notice at 100 meters in an AR15, SIG 550 (PE90) or Steyr AUG using  average or Lapua Match brass and several 52/53/55/60/69/73/75 or 77 grain match bullets? Not really..... I guess my .223 rifles still outperfom my mediocre skills :) )

 

My overall favorite FL sizing die in .223R for a semi-auto is the Forster FL. But as always, YMMV.

 

Greetings form the Netherlands,

RGA

 

 

 

Edited by RGA
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10 hours ago, RGA said:

Best wishes for 2022!

 

Over the years I experimented with several brands and types of sizing dies in .223 (amongst other calibers) and concerning internal neck sizing found the following. If you want to do internal neck sizing in a seperate operation I get better results (less runout) using a Sinclair mandrel/expander than the Lyman M-die. I use a (very) little Imperial/Redding sizing wax for lubrication but you can also opt for a dry neck lube if prefered. Lubrication of the inside of the neck does make a difference when compaired to no lube at all. Also I polished the expander buttons and mandrels

 

The best runout figures using full length dies with a expander button are achieved with Forster FL dies and the figures are almost identical to the Sinclair mandrel. The results with Forster FL dies are considerably better than with any other brand FL die (where the sizing button sits lower on the decapping rod) I tested. I also oberved this in .308W en 6BR.

 

The dies I tested (full length):

 

- Redding S-die (FL) with .244 and .245 bushings

- Forster FL (3 of them)

- Dillon FL

- RCBS FL

- RCBS FL small base

- Lee FL

- Mighty Armory FL

 

Mandrels/expanders:

 

- Sinclair mandrel (.221, .222 and .223. For a semi-auto I would not go larger than the .222 to retain proper neck tension. With the .222 mandrel the 

   internal neck diameter will spring back to .221 with most brands of brass I used leaving .003 necktension)

 -Lyman M-die

 

When I want to use my Mk7 Evo press with the bullet feeder I have to use the M-die as it is the only one that can flare the case mouth slighty but this does have a slighty negative effect on the neck runout. (But then again, do I notice at 100 meters in an AR15, SIG 550 (PE90) or Steyr AUG using  average or Lapua Match brass and several 52/53/55/60/69/73/75 or 77 grain match bullets? Not really..... I guess my .223 rifles still outperfom my mediocre skills :) )

 

My overall favorite FL sizing die in .223R for a semi-auto is the Forster FL. But as always, YMMV.

 

Greetings form the Netherlands,

RGA

 

 

 

It’s interesting you mention the runout problems as I had run into that same situation with a pull through expander. I did a cross section of some brass that had terrible runout to see what was going on. What I found was the worst offenders were thicker at the neck shoulder junction on one side. I don’t think they started out that way necessarily but after repeated loadings, sizings the metal just thinned more on one side. When the ball expander pulls though, of course the brass will tip and pull to the thin side making matters worse. Most brass seems to be pretty concentric +-.0005-.001 but the bad ones were around .002 or better. I can see where the mandrel expander could lessen the effects. 

Edited by Farmer
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Another observation / question. With the S dies I've been using the expander ball plus the neck bushing. I have been needing to chamfer the outsides of the necks after sizing as the brass ends up with a slight ridge around the neck opening. It's enough I can take my thumbnail and feel the ridge around the opening so I always do the inside bevel and outside chamfer. I'm starting to wonder if this ridge may be caused by the expander ball coming out of the neck and pulling a bit of brass stretched out with it. Also, resized brass wall thickness is coming out .0003 thinner than new brass. If I don't use the internal expander ball wondering if this will eliminate the slight ridge.

 

Since a have a LOT of brass that has been prepped and primed that I'm not happy with as it was done with a standard Hornady die I'm thinking or redoing the necks.  Thought is rerun the brass with out the expander or decap pin and use a smaller neck bushing. I wanted a .246 bushing but seems everyone is sold out and on back order

so will likely drop down to .245 for bushing as I have found that size. Next, rerun the brass with the M die at .222 to resize the interior neck tension. Depending on amount of brass spring-back, this should result in a neck tension of .002 or slightly more since this is a gas gun.

 

For those people harping about the M dies and flaring the neck on bottle neck brass, M dies have two stages. The first stage of the spindle is intended to bring the neck to a uniform ROUND shape with consistent tension the length of the neck. The 2nd stage of the die spindle is slightly larger diameter and intended to stretch the mouth slightly to make it easier to seat the bullet.   If the spindle is not set as deep the 2nd stage never engages the brass and there is no flare. Neck uniforming only.

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Ok, so nothing has changed with the M die so no problem there using it to uniform necks. If you have a bunch that is already primed and sized, unless they are totally horrible I would just load and shoot them. Then you can size with your bushing die and get it proper. The more you work it the harder it gets but I’m sure you already know that. I’ve had that ring or kind of a flair appear on the mouths when re-forming or sometimes with the bushing dies. Doesn’t seem to hurt anything. Could yours possibly be from a previous crimp? I also did an accuracy test with different neck tensions. Went from .001-.004. The .002-.003 were consistently the most accurate and lowest SD in several calibers from 223AI to 708. 

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Somewhere around year to year and a half ago I had some time to prep brass so ended up prepping over (300) ++ of the Hornady 223 single fire brass. Problem is they were all done with Hornady Match dies which do not use the neck bushings. Tested over (100) of those loads and all the loads had SDs in the mid 20s to mid 40s and bad groups. Use Redding S dies for all my other rifle loads and all have SDs in the single digits.

 

If I don't chamfer and bevel can really tell the difference in tension when seating bullets so now I always do the neck prep. Was curious where the ridge was coming from as I have looked over the brass after firing but before prepping and there was no ridge. Ridge appears after sizing so something in the current sizing process is creating the ridge.

 

Beveling the inside of the necks is super easy, couple seconds max of light tough and done. Chamfering the outer ridge is a lot more time consuming so figuring out what I'm doing and being able to eliminate the ridge would help speed the process up.

 

Do typically anneal my rifle brass. Have been guilty of skipping some of the 223s as I need to spend a bunch of time resetting the machine for the shorter cases and then have to set it back again.

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I noticed a huge difference in seating psi when I switched from the 60 degree chamfer tool to the 40 degree one. One thing I forgot to mention was that most brass has a ridge on the outside of the mouth. It’s hard to see without magnification but it can cause problems as it sizes that small portion down more than the rest of the neck. It can be a bugger to clean up too. Almost have to use a neck turning tool. 

Edited by Farmer
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2 hours ago, Farmer said:

I noticed a huge difference in seating psi when I switched from the 60 degree chamfer tool to the 40 degree one. One thing I forgot to mention was that most brass has a ridge on the outside of the mouth. It’s hard to see without magnification but it can cause problems as it sizes that small portion down more than the rest of the neck. It can be a bugger to clean up too. Almost have to use a neck turning tool. 

Just curious… how are you getting whatever psi reading or indication when seating bullets?

 

DIYguy….

 

when I get back to my reloading shop, I will take a look at which bushing I have in my .223 Redding S die (without the decapping rod assembly).   This is for Lake City brass.  I haven’t checked the other brass I have for neck thickness.

 

FWIW, I am reloading on my 650.  If I trim, I do NOT use a deburring/chamfering tool.  Instead I will rely on wet tumbling to remove any inside or outside burr.  After drying the brass…,

 

For one of my .223 load toolheads, station #1 has a Lyman M die to knock off any remaining inside burr.  This is all done for the sake of speed / expediency / convenience.

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1 hour ago, Chills1994 said:

Just curious… how are you getting whatever psi reading or indication when seating bullets?

With my accurate, well trained and calibrated arm, wrist and elbow on a single stage press. 😁

Edited by Farmer
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I had to look up what harping meant first..... :)  Sorry that I bored you with my post, just wanted to share some of the things I 'noticed' over the last 3 decades. And that's what they are, just observations and not gospel.... :)   I'm fully aware of the functions of the M-die and I use them in pistol calibers on my 650's instead of the Dillon funnel/expander. It is an excellent tool that is the best bet the pistol bullets will be seated straight.

 

Sorry if I was not clear enough that I use the 'flaring/stretching' function of the 2nd step on the M-die only when I want to use the bullet feeder om my Mk7 Evo. Otherwise the freshly dropped bullets will topple off the case during shell plate rotation. (And also like yourself to remove any burs left over from trimming. I size/trim/load .223R in one pass on the Evo.)

 

Good luck!

Edited by RGA
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Sorry RGA, no insult intended, wad not even remotely thinking of you with that comment. Did another post on another forum and when the M die was mentioned there were multiple post that were full blown insulting and going off on how stupid it was to even consider an M die with FMJ bullet, etc yada yada.

I appreciate your excellent input!

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🍻

 

I guess I misunderstood. No worries!

 

People who disrespect the M-die don't have their information straight imho. It is the best expander in the business and many other companies (tried to) copy it.

 

😉

 

 

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10 hours ago, Farmer said:

With my accurate, well trained and calibrated arm, wrist and elbow on a single stage press. 😁


Aaaahhh!

 

Okay!

 

Anywhoo…

 

Not to add any more confusion to my posts here in this thread, but there are these as well:

 

5D3F1406-33E0-4108-8567-4EF826C1EB33.thumb.jpeg.e44524a3d6cadd2a0f91c68e3dca6c55.jpeg

 

Butttt…. I would think that if you are reloading .223 Remington especially for just an AR15, then a Lyman M die should be good enough.

 

As a side note, I just got in a Redding S die for .22-250 that I ordered back in June.  I would like to think I have a good collection of neck bushings.  But I have this feeling that I will end up swapping out the bushing back and forth between the .223 and .22-250 die.  😞

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1 hour ago, RGA said:

🍻

 

I guess I misunderstood. No worries!

 

People who disrespect the M-die don't have their information straight imho. It is the best expander in the business and many other companies (tried to) copy it.

 

😉

 

 

Heck yeah it is!

 

Especially if you are reloading on a progressive.

 

Some dude on the “Hide” was selling Nosler 55 grainer flat base bullets.

 

With the M die’s mandrel screwed down just enough to put a slight flare on the case mouth, I was able to seat those flat base Noslers without having them fall off the top of the case AND my fingers didn’t get mashed trying to keep the bullet vertical as it entered the seating die.

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Since I trimmed my .223 brass to 1.740” using the Dillon Rapid Trimmer, on subsequent firings/reloadings  it seems like all the brass stays under the max length of 1.760” .  So I have separate load toolhead for my 650 that is:

 

1.  Universal decapper

2. Redding S die with a neck bushing and no decapping rod expander ball

3.  Empty

4.  Dillon powder measure, retrograded…. Yes at station #4

5.  Bullet seating die .

 

I call it Single Pass Rifle Reloading (SPaRR).

 

It goes rather fast.

 

🙂

 

Of course, with no M die, I use boattail bullets with that toolhead /method .

 

 

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7 hours ago, RGA said:

🍻

 

I guess I misunderstood. No worries!

 

People who disrespect the M-die don't have their information straight imho. It is the best expander in the business and many other companies (tried to) copy it.

 

😉

 

 

2x

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223 M die and .245 neck bushing ordered.

Started beveling and chamfering the new, no fire Hornady brass

Poured myself a very nice single malt Scotch on a sub-zero MN night and stood besides a very small fire. As in loaded up the Annealeez and annealed about (150) casings and watched the small flame as the brass rolled through. Seemed like the thing to do on a cold MN night.

🙂

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7 hours ago, DIYguy said:

223 M die and .245 neck bushing ordered.

Started beveling and chamfering the new, no fire Hornady brass

Poured myself a very nice single malt Scotch on a sub-zero MN night and stood besides a very small fire. As in loaded up the Annealeez and annealed about (150) casings and watched the small flame as the brass rolled through. Seemed like the thing to do on a cold MN night.

🙂

What cold winter nights are made for. 👍

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