Proper use of 1050 station #3

[kmc]

On my Super 1050, I depend on the swager in station 3 to prevent bangs during station 4 primer insertion--either from ringers or (more frequently) attempting to shove a large pistol primer into small pistol primer 45acp cases. What isn't clear to me is the value of the Dillon "expander/hold down" die on the top-side of station 3.  I have recently moved most of my handgun cartridge reloading to my 1050 after adding automation and have found that if I adjust the Dillon expander die as I believe they suggest, it does not sufficiently expand the case for MBF yet it does sufficiently expand the case to make it a total pain to gauge my completed rounds. I want to expand no more than absolutely necessary so my properly-sized rounds drop easily down into the Hundo case gauge. To facilitate this result, I've found I need to back off my Dillon expander die to just do (at most) the top of the brass and depend on the MBF powder funnel to do the real belling/expanding work. Frankly I'm not convinced I need the expander die at all though I think providing some hold-down contact would have to help the swager do it's thing.

Perhaps I'm not using it correctly. How are others using this die/station? I have read where some use a different (Redding, Lyman, etc) expander in this station rather than the Dillon. I currently only use this press for high-volume handgun USPSA rounds, the answer and necessity might be far different for a bottle-necked (non-belled) rifle round.

Edited December 26, 2021 by kmc
rewording

[George16]

On my 1100, instead of the Dillon hold down/expander, I installed and had been using an FW Arms Auto-centering swage foot die. It has a heat treated steel rod than holds down the case directly on the primer hole and doesn’t expand or bell the case.

 

The MBF provides the belling of the case prior to bullet seating.

 

https://fwarms.com/shop/reloading/f-w-arms-auto-center-swage-foot/

 

[AHI]

If you are using a lot of crimped cases you definitely need the hold down rod. If not then any of the expander dies will preform similar. Their are aftermarket hold down dies. 

I have a mighty armory one on my process head  . If buying today I would look at the FW armory one.  Another option would be to have the shaft "turned down "to a slightly smaller diameter. I still use the Dillon die on my individual load heads. I am not experiencing your issue.

 

[kmc]

15 minutes ago, George16 said:

On my 1100, instead of the Dillon hold down/expander, I installed and had been using an FW Arms Auto-centering swage foot die. It has a heat treated steel rod than holds down the case directly on the primer hole and doesn’t expand or bell the case.

 

The MBF provides the belling of the case prior to bullet seating.

 

https://fwarms.com/shop/reloading/f-w-arms-auto-center-swage-foot/

 

This looks like an excellent option.

[AHI]

Be aware that the FW one referenced is for  Rifle not pistol. May not work for 45acp.

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, kmc said:

adding automation

 

What automation unit did you add?  If it’s a Mark 7, I would be adding sewage sense to the press to prevent primers from going off. If not I would think I would being sorting th 45 casing to make sure the small primer casings did not find their way in. 

 

Not sure how properly holding down the casing is going to “fix” the issue. I cannot see when the unit is automated how the unit would know to stop if a small primer case was trying to be swagged. In manual I imagine the press handle would feel spongy at the bottom of the stroke like it does when you have a ringer. Automated systems could not sense this unless you had a torque setting or something like swage sense. 

[kmc]

1 hour ago, AHI said:

I still use the Dillon die on my individual load heads. I am not experiencing your issue.

 

A complicating factor is I'm using a combo seat/crimp die, since I'm running a Powder Check. I suspect this doesn't work as good to remove any additional expansion as an original Dillon or especially compared to a FCD.

[kmc]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

What automation unit did you add?  If it’s a Mark 7, I would be adding sewage sense to the press to prevent primers from going off. If not I would think I would being sorting th 45 casing to make sure the small primer casings did not find their way in. 

 

Not sure how properly holding down the casing is going to “fix” the issue. I cannot see when the unit is automated how the unit would know to stop if a small primer case was trying to be swagged. In manual I imagine the press handle would feel spongy at the bottom of the stroke like it does when you have a ringer. Automated systems could not sense this unless you had a torque setting or something like swage sense. 

I added M7 automation and absolutely use swagesense to detect ringers or improper pockets. I believe holding down the cases properly simply allows the swager to correctly handle crimped primer cases. In my experience, sorting cases by hand may delay when you try to put a large primer in a small pocket but won't prevent it from happening...it's only when, not if. Also if you've been busy making tracks on your 550 or 650 in the meantime, you may not initially notice the "spongy" swager on your 1050. Ask me how I know . I can attest to what happens--and have the dent in my ceiling from the primer Follower Rod to prove it!

Edited December 26, 2021 by kmc
typo

[ddc]

2 hours ago, AHI said:

... Another option would be to have the shaft "turned down "to a slightly smaller diameter....

 

 

I turned mine down as you describe so it's only function is to hold down.

[Boomstick303]

11 hours ago, kmc said:

I can attest to what happens--and have the dent in my ceiling from the primer Follower Rod to prove it!

 

I do not doubt this. I am curious as to what primer you set off that set the whole stack off?  I have smashed the hell out of primers in the priming station and luckily have not set one off.  I use CCI and Federal so I wonder if other primers are more susceptible to go off when smashed in station 4 on the 1050.

[kmc]

44 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I do not doubt this. I am curious as to what primer you set off that set the whole stack off?  I have smashed the hell out of primers in the priming station and luckily have not set one off.  I use CCI and Federal so I wonder if other primers are more susceptible to go off when smashed in station 4 on the 1050.

Back in the "good ole days" (up to about 18 months ago!) I loaded 3 kinds of primers: Winchester or CCI for non-revo and Federal for revo rounds. I don't recall which I was doing but I know it was large (in 45acp) and suspect Winchester at that time. I tried to shove a large primer in the small primer hole ignoring the spongy warning and set off half a stack of them. It was deafeningly loud and turned the primer feed tube into something that looked like a snake that swallowed a cow. I have a well-organized shop but I didn't even find follower rod (other than the busted off top knob) until 6 months later behind a bin on the other side of the shop. It renewed my desire to wear safety glasses while reloading, though not hearing protection...

[kmc]

I should add that I learned new respect for Dillon's Primer Feed Body, which remained unharmed.

[jejb]

In my 1100's 3rd station, I use a Lee "undersized die". Since it touches the shell plate when at full cycle, it acts as an external hold down for the swager. So station 2 and 3 are sizing stations. I could have used the Lee die as my only sizing die, but figured it'd pull through the press better if I "pre-sized" them. And I was not a fan of the plastic hold down for the swager anyway. 

 

I let the MBF powder drop do all the belling. The Lee die cut down on my Hundo failures by like 99%. 

[AHI]

You do not have your combination seat crimp die set correctly. After reading your additional post I came to this .

[kmc]

13 hours ago, AHI said:

You do not have your combination seat crimp die set correctly. After reading your additional post I came to this .

Why do you say this? I’ve been running seat/crimp combo for some time both on my 650 and now on the 1050–so I can run a powder check die. I takes some time to set up correctly and is a little more finicky with brass size but seems to do the trick. Length is correct and the crimp eliminates the bell but does not penetrate the coating.

[kmc]

14 hours ago, jejb said:

In my 1100's 3rd station, I use a Lee "undersized die". Since it touches the shell plate when at full cycle, it acts as an external hold down for the swager. So station 2 and 3 are sizing stations. I could have used the Lee die as my only sizing die, but figured it'd pull through the press better if I "pre-sized" them. And I was not a fan of the plastic hold down for the swager anyway. 

 

I let the MBF powder drop do all the belling. The Lee die cut down on my Hundo failures by like 99%. 

This seems like a good alternative but I’ve not always been crazy about U dies. Doesn’t it leave all your rounds with a coke bottle shape? Prior to the automation another downside was how hard it worked the brass though as a second sizer, I can see why it wouldn’t be as bad.

[Ryan67]

Anything done on by the small bell on station 3 should be pushed backed into place by your crimp die. I use a cutaway case to set my swage die up and have no problems with either a Dillon or my preference of the Lee factory crimp passing a hundo gauge every time. Make sure your crimp die is set properly.

[kmc]

16 minutes ago, Ryan67 said:

Anything done on by the small bell on station 3 should be pushed backed into place by your crimp die. I use a cutaway case to set my swage die up and have no problems with either a Dillon or my preference of the Lee factory crimp passing a hundo gauge every time. Make sure your crimp die is set properly.

I too use a cutaway die to set my swager--both the DP holddown and the swager underneath. I'm running this with 40 and had the holddown die set to the bottom of the case and the swager set appropriately in the primer pocket. This positioning causes the brass to expand such that it will not drop into the hundo after station 3. It isn't the slight bell that stops it, it is the expansion toward the bottom of the case that does won't go into the Hundo. My crimp die is a combo seat/crimp so I can run a powder check. It takes the top bell/expansion out without issue but does not remove it toward the bottom of the shell. If I set the combo die up to go further toward the shellplate, it crimps too tightly at the top. I know the combo dies are tricky to set and have followed the suggested procedure as far as I know.

[jejb]

8 hours ago, kmc said:

This seems like a good alternative but I’ve not always been crazy about U dies. Doesn’t it leave all your rounds with a coke bottle shape? 

I guess I just don't pay attention to if they're a little "coke bottle" shaped. Why would it matter? They pass my Hundo and always go bang, even in my pickiest gun (CZ Shadow 2 Orange). 

[Boomstick303]

2 hours ago, jejb said:

Why would it matter?

 

I could see a way where the coke bottle shape could possibly lead to feed issues  with the first round when the mag is at full capacity and you load a pistol +1.

 

Other than that I cannot see where it matters as long as it passes the gage.

 

People discuss how U Dies prevents setback.  While I agree, I use Redding dies and have never had an issue with setback and for the most part my brass casing are straight walled with no "Coke bottle Shape".

[George16]

28 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I could see a way where the coke bottle shape could possibly lead to feed issues  with the first round when the mag is at full capacity and you load a pistol +1.

 

Other than that I cannot see where it matters as long as it passes the gage.

 

People discuss how U Dies prevents setback.  While I agree, I use Redding dies and have never had an issue with setback and for the most part my brass casing are straight walled with no "Coke bottle Shape".

I have both the Lee Udie and Redding carbide sizing die. Having measured both, the Redding is about .001”-.002” wider in diameter compared to the Lee Udie. I think this is the main reason the Redding works just as good as the Lee udie without the coke bottle shape.

[Boomstick303]

10 minutes ago, George16 said:

I think this is the main reason the Redding works just as good as the Lee udie without the coke bottle shape.

 

Pretty crazy that small of dimension change between the dies causes such a perceived difference in the case wall.

 

[George16]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Pretty crazy that small of dimension change between the dies causes such a perceived difference in the case wall.

 

Yes it is. Before measuring them, I was always wondering why I was getting the coke bottle shape with the Lee but not with the Redding. 

[ltdmstr]

52 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

People discuss how U Dies prevents setback.  While I agree, I use Redding dies and have never had an issue with setback and for the most part my brass casing are straight walled with no "Coke bottle Shape".

 

All that's required to prevent setback is .002 - .003 interference fit. The coke-bottle effect is a clear indication you have more than that.  The excess sizing overworks the brass and requires more effort to operate the machine, which is particularly noticeable if you're running it manually.  Basically, there's no upside.  The Redding die (or some other properly sized die) is a better arrangement.

[Boomstick303]

4 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

Basically, there's no upside.  The Redding die (or some other properly sized die) is a better arrangement.

 

Agreed.  I was actually loading 9mm last night and did some setback testing to make sure I was not getting any.  None what so ever.

 

The coke bottle effect also does not sit well with my OCD at all.