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Member survey for AIWB holsters


BigJerm
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13 hours ago, MarkS_A18138 said:

UPDATE: I looked under Baret Fawbush and he did show up! 2 matches in 2020....TTTG 11-16-19 and Tri-State Tactical Two Gun 2020 11-21-2020

 

 

So I called a serious Tac Timmy tonight, to ask about Fawbush since I have no clue who he is and when you pull him in Practiscore Competitor he does not show up.. My Timmy friend who just made Master in USPSA CO with a AIWB and is a recent 4 division Master in IDPA said the guy is a 100% instagram shooter and that is it! 

 

So back on track with the AIWB the guys who shoot them on a normal basis at our matches take some time to safely holster the pistol at make ready! I do think your joe blow off the street needs to spend some time working on holstering and drawing before doing on the timer. 

I've come across him on YT a few times. As far as I know he's a self-defense oriented shooting instructor in PA who has no connection to the competition shooting world. I've never heard him talk about competition.

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13 hours ago, rowdyb said:

RE what good shooting is, I love this definition, "Good shooting is doing the fundamentals perfectly, on demand, at speed, every time and under conditions not of your own choosing."  It is that final part that practice bay heroes and those awed by them seem to forget and ignore.

Great definition - is this a quote from someone?

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41 minutes ago, BigJerm said:

I've come across him on YT a few times. As far as I know he's a self-defense oriented shooting instructor in PA who has no connection to the competition shooting world. I've never heard him talk about competition.

It appears to me that most self-defense oriented shooting instructors don't talk about competition because they avoid competition because competition would make it obvious that their shooting skills were not all that awesome.

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20 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

It appears to me that most self-defense oriented shooting instructors don't talk about competition because they avoid competition because competition would make it obvious that their shooting skills were not all that awesome.

 

I help a local company with training for CCW etc. They actually recommend people seek out competition, to get trigger time under pressure instead of just plinking. They don't compete but not because they're avoiding it, they have full classes to teach Saturday and Sunday every weekend all year. 

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2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

It appears to me that most self-defense oriented shooting instructors don't talk about competition because they avoid competition because competition would make it obvious that their shooting skills were not all that awesome.


But IMO that applies to Gabe White from 2019-2021 and is reflected in his performance. 
 

Same thing with Jedi. 

 

3 hours ago, BigJerm said:

I've come across him on YT a few times. As far as I know he's a self-defense oriented shooting instructor in PA who has no connection to the competition shooting world. I've never heard him talk about competition.


Same thing with Fawbush. He does things like Jedlinski black belt standards and Gabe White standards in videos. 
 

I lump them all in together as good stand and shoot practitioners, but not excellent field course competitors (which is a different set of skills). 
 

People make fun of paper GMs but this is no different. Stand and shoot prowess is a little different than field course achievement. 
 

Re AIWB, I usually use manual safety equipped guns to add safety but if I am using striker fired I tilt my hips and use my weak hand to flip the bottom of the holster away from my junk so if there’s an ND with reholster it wouldn’t hit anything in the path. 

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38 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Outside of uspsa I imagine field course skills are virtually useless. 

being able to shoot accurately and quickly without having to stop and assume a particular stance seems to me like a highly useful skill in any combat or defensive situation.

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1 hour ago, -JCN- said:

People make fun of paper GMs but this is no different. Stand and shoot prowess is a little different than field course achievement.

 

You are right on some level - like comparing someone who is good at free throws to someone who is good at basketball. They are not the same thing.

 

But I also think it's apples and oranges. As Clint Smith points out, most self defense scenarios aren't tough from a marksmanship standpoint. Draw and fire 3-ish rounds on the move at 3-5 yards. Taking 5 seconds to decide to get your gun out is the time-adder in self defense. The instructor types are usually more concerned with teaching things like tactical decision making, OODA loop, deescalation, unarmed combatives, etc.

 

Not trying to be too much of a timmy here. I just don't think requiring GM level performance from a self-defense instructor makes a lot of sense.

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10 minutes ago, BigJerm said:

 

You are right on some level - like comparing someone who is good at free throws to someone who is good at basketball. They are not the same thing.

 

But I also think it's apples and oranges. As Clint Smith points out, most self defense scenarios aren't tough from a marksmanship standpoint. Draw and fire 3-ish rounds on the move at 3-5 yards. Taking 5 seconds to decide to get your gun out is the time-adder in self defense. The instructor types are usually more concerned with teaching things like tactical decision making, OODA loop, deescalation, unarmed combatives, etc.

 

Not trying to be too much of a timmy here. I just don't think requiring GM level performance from a self-defense instructor makes a lot of sense.


It’s interesting because a semi pro basketball friend told me something relevant. 
 

Good free throw shooters aren’t necessarily good basketball players, but good three point shooters are almost always good free throw shooters. 
 

The question is whether the Timmies are the free throw shooters.

 

Some timmies have combat / special forces experiences and if I wanted fighting instruction that’s the kind of class I would take from them. Force on force and simunitions. 
 

Stand and shoot Timmy instruction from non-military dudes is like free

throw instruction. 
 

I would take instruction from someone like Karl Rehn who is a Timmy and a GM if I wanted self defensive pistol education. 
 

Some free throw Timmies give instruction that lacks the context of the actual game. Their courses are mainly square range and 7 yard standing drills. 
 

That's just my opinion and bias. 

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4 hours ago, -JCN- said:

Good free throw shooters aren’t necessarily good basketball players, but good three point shooters are almost always good free throw shooters. 
 

Some free throw Timmies give instruction that lacks the context of the actual game. 

The basketball example you gave - that’s what I was getting at. Sounds like we’re on the same page, especially the parts I quoted above.

 

I’m really in no way defending the Instagram guys with no real experience - most of them are f*#kin goofballs.

 

Just pointing out that shooting and moving efficiently is really a small part of a bigger picture where self defense is concerned, whereas in USPSA it’s the entire picture.

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14 hours ago, motosapiens said:

being able to shoot accurately and quickly without having to stop and assume a particular stance seems to me like a highly useful skill in any combat or defensive situation.

 

Right, but he separated out stand and shoot stuff and field courses. Shooting accurately and quickly would be required for everything. 

 

So specific skills we use for field courses, like needing to memorize the stage and exactly where the targets are. Aim through the snow fence wall at the target with your gun up and break the shot the instant the A zone is available. I don't see how any of that will apply directly. We never even think about using cover, our shooting on the move in a lot of cases we're not moving that fast and we're wide open. We charge into everything because there is no danger. 

 

But yeah, USPSA shooters are totally operators with our field course skills. 

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2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

So specific skills we use for field courses, like needing to memorize the stage and exactly where the targets are. Aim through the snow fence wall at the target with your gun up and break the shot the instant the A zone is available. I don't see how any of that will apply directly. We never even think about using cover, our shooting on the move in a lot of cases we're not moving that fast and we're wide open. We charge into everything because there is no danger. 

 

 

sure, sport specific sport is sport specific. the visualization/memorization techniques that shooters, skiers, gymnasts, golfers and other athletes use are (mostly) specific to sports or other performances. I may have misunderstood you when you said 'field course skills'. I assumed you were talking about the uspsa stuff and not referring to the fairly universal analysis and visualization skills that are part of most every athletic or competitive or performance endeavour. 

 

 

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11 hours ago, BigJerm said:

The basketball example you gave - that’s what I was getting at. Sounds like we’re on the same page, especially the parts I quoted above.

 

I’m really in no way defending the Instagram guys with no real experience - most of them are f*#kin goofballs.

 

Just pointing out that shooting and moving efficiently is really a small part of a bigger picture where self defense is concerned, whereas in USPSA it’s the entire picture.


I think we are on the same page. I think for self defense most of us won’t ever need a gun at all. Out of the people who do, many will only need to present the gun to psychologically stop the threat. 
 

And a number of threats will be stopped at the mere sound of a gunshot of any caliber regardless of being hit. 
 

So we could say that most of us would only need a starter pistol to keep us safe from harm. 
 

Handgun training for self defense is mostly mental masturbation. It’s all what your level of comfort with preparation and training are. 
 

I won’t probably ever use my life insurance policy. It’s designed so that I won’t get my money’s worth most likely. 
 

But we all have different personal odds/stakes trade offs. For me personally, I’ll train handguns mainly for fun knowing that even Instagram goobers probably have “good enough” skills from a probability standpoint!

 

 

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

But yeah, USPSA shooters are totally operators with our field course skills. 

 

The benefit of field course to me is solving a novel problem not of your own choosing and having the mechanical skill and judgement to apply it to diverse scenarios. 
 

Sure there are a lot of gamey techniques that are extremely sport specific. Unloaded and table starts come to mind. 
 

But the general philosophy of a field course of solving a problem is what I think a lot of stand and shoot people don’t get practice on. 
 

If you had a COF that you gave rules including cover and added people shooting paintballs at you, I think a good USPSA shooter would still excel once they accepted that the challenge wasn’t that of the sport specific. 

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26 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

 

The benefit of field course to me is solving a novel problem not of your own choosing and having the mechanical skill and judgement to apply it to diverse scenarios. 
 

Sure there are a lot of gamey techniques that are extremely sport specific. Unloaded and table starts come to mind. 
 

But the general philosophy of a field course of solving a problem is what I think a lot of stand and shoot people don’t get practice on. 
 

If you had a COF that you gave rules including cover and added people shooting paintballs at you, I think a good USPSA shooter would still excel once they accepted that the challenge wasn’t that of the sport specific. 

 

Absolutely, stage planning and trying to maximize your score is something that takes time and experience to figure out. Someone who doesn't shoot USPSA and doesn't know the scoring, no matter how good of a shooter they are probably aren't going to do great in matches. Where as a simple stand and shoot classifier is basically a drill which they might be able to accel at. 

 

Sometime I think we as competitive shooters gain a lot of is the abilities to work through problems on the fly. Having back up plans, or needing to make adjustments based on the unexpected. It could be malfunctions, running dry, poppers not falling, dropping a mag whatever. Better shooters tend to handle these things vary well because they've had to deal with it over the years and under pressure of competition. 

 

 

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We get a lot of people who say they want to "shoot what they carry".

 

But they don't shoot LIKE they carry.

Wouldn't it be more "defensive" or "practical" if they didn't take the walkthrough?  Sure, you can see the targets through the usual mesh dividers, but if you didn't walk through and see the actual lines of fire, plot convenient reload points, etc. wouldn't that be more "tactical?"

 

I know that when IDPA allowed the occasional "surprise" stage, it made me work harder.  

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

We get a lot of people who say they want to "shoot what they carry".

 

But they don't shoot LIKE they carry.

Wouldn't it be more "defensive" or "practical" if they didn't take the walkthrough?  Sure, you can see the targets through the usual mesh dividers, but if you didn't walk through and see the actual lines of fire, plot convenient reload points, etc. wouldn't that be more "tactical?"

 

 

that still seems fake and contrived to me. IDPA is a sport, kind of a silly one in some respects, but still a sport, with scores and winners. It's not tactical training.

 

It makes sense to me to compete sometimes with my carry rig purely for familiarity and practice and skill in manipulating and shooting my carry gun. If I need actual tractical training, I'll seek that elsewhere and not keep score.

 

One thing I did learn right away from IDPA is that is that pocket guns and subcompacts are not that easy to shoot well, so it might be worth the slight extra hassle to carry a gun you *can* shoot well.

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2 hours ago, -JCN- said:

Handgun training for self defense is mostly mental masturbation.

 

But we all have different personal odds/stakes trade offs. For me personally, I’ll train handguns mainly for fun knowing that even Instagram goobers probably have “good enough” skills from a probability standpoint!

Totally agree. 90% of the reason I'm in it is because I enjoy it. It's what draws me to USPSA rather than 3 day tactical courses.

 

The martial arts world in general is full of what-iffers with overactive imaginations. The concealed carry world can be an extension of that. Martial artists do the same thing - "if you're not a jiu jitsu blackbelt, you're unqualified to teach self defense." Meanwhile they've never been in a real fight, can't shoot their way out of a paper bag, and haven't ever stopped to think about situational awareness.

 

I liken it to a football player with a 500lb squat. Among the strength elite, that number is mediocre at best. But for the football player, the amount of specialization and effort it would take to get his squat to 600 would likely make him worse at stated goal of being good at football, because he'd have to drop his efforts in other areas.

 

 

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26 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

... IDPA is a sport, kind of a silly one in some respects, but still a sport, with scores and winners. It's not tactical training.

 

It makes sense to me to compete sometimes with my carry rig purely for familiarity and practice and skill in manipulating and shooting my carry gun. If I need actual tactical training, I'll seek that elsewhere and not keep score...

 

That's the way I see it.

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38 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

One thing I did learn right away from IDPA is that is that pocket guns and subcompacts are not that easy to shoot well, so it might be worth the slight extra hassle to carry a gun you *can* shoot well.

 

I shot a match once where they let me run a pocket holster....I learned the same thing, that thing is almost useless. And tiny guns are snappy little bitches. 

 

Although I recently won a Max-9 at a IDPA match and I might make that my IDPA CO gun for a while. Will I win? Probably not. Will I make fun of any of my buddies I beat with it? Most definitely. 

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To get back on topic to that end I would love if a sport like IDPA gave an ADVANTAGE to people running tiny guns to make it more realistic to carry 18 ounce micro guns rather than 45 ounce full sizers. 
 

I’d love a 15 round micro optic class from AIWB concealment. I would run that over a 10 round full size class. 

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33 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

To get back on topic to that end I would love if a sport like IDPA gave an ADVANTAGE to people running tiny guns to make it more realistic to carry 18 ounce micro guns rather than 45 ounce full sizers. 
 

I’d love a 15 round micro optic class from AIWB concealment. I would run that over a 10 round full size class. 

technically I guess they compete in different divisions, but we all know people look at the overall. Last IDPA match I attended (last weekend) the overall winner was shooting a subcompact EDC with a dot. Not sure what exact gun, but basically the size of sig 365.

 

I either shoot my edc (cz p01), or if it's singlestack season, a 1911 in 45. No real difference in performance or match placement with them, but it's not like it's a highly competitive crowd, lol.

 

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58 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

To get back on topic to that end I would love if a sport like IDPA gave an ADVANTAGE to people running tiny guns to make it more realistic to carry 18 ounce micro guns rather than 45 ounce full sizers. 
 

I’d love a 15 round micro optic class from AIWB concealment. I would run that over a 10 round full size class. 

 

I'm fine with their 10 round limits with the smaller stages. But I'd be for this division, I've considered emailing my AC about that exact thing. But decided I can just shoot a gun like that in the big gun divisions. I'm sure with a little practice I wont be as far behind as people might expect. 

 

One of my friends has won our local match with his EDC P365 in CO, but the vast majority of the time he'll be shooting a full size 1911 in CO. 

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On 12/14/2021 at 1:15 PM, -JCN- said:


But IMO that applies to Gabe White from 2019-2021 and is reflected in his performance. 
 

 

I have to defend Gabe, having shot with him on many occasions, he has legit field course skills not just sand and shoot instagram s#!t, the only thing that held him back competitively was shooting Limited division (due to the holster location restrictions) with actual carry gear, he shot entirely from concealment reloads and all vs guys shooting full on race guns and gear. Even with this handicap he was at the top locally and did very well in reginal competitions.

I have a lot of respect for him, he is very much a martial artist and was not willing to sacrifice his craft to place a few spots higher at nationals.

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3 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I have to defend Gabe, having shot with him on many occasions, he has legit field course skills not just sand and shoot instagram s#!t, the only thing that held him back competitively was shooting Limited division (due to the holster location restrictions) with actual carry gear, he shot entirely from concealment reloads and all vs guys shooting full on race guns and gear. Even with this handicap he was at the top locally and did very well in reginal competitions.

I have a lot of respect for him, he is very much a martial artist and was not willing to sacrifice his craft to place a few spots higher at nationals.

 

 

The quality of movement and shooting lacks a certain crispness and coordination I’m used to seeing at the higher levels. 
 

If you didn’t know who that was, what Production / 9 minor limited rating would you give him?

 

To me it looks like an A class Production / CO or so. Which fits with Legacy M and his Area 1 finish. That’s not bad, but not anything to write home about IMO.

Edited by -JCN-
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