Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Member survey for AIWB holsters


BigJerm

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 100
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

4 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

I did not know you could draw that fast from a real concealment AIWB.

 

Wrong, it is just another soapbox for "USPSA is better."  


Well, I’m glad you learned that you can draw that fast from concealment!

 

As for “USPSA is better…” nope, but USPSA shooters are better. JJ won IDPA nationals in his first match. 
 

:D

 

I would totally run IDPA if they allowed AIWB micro guns with red dots and 15 round capacities, you know like I actually carry my P365X. 
 

The last time I tried IDPA I was top handgun by 40 seconds over 4 stages and 50 point thingies to the second place guy. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, -JCN- said:


Well, I’m glad you learned that you can draw that fast from concealment!

 

As for “USPSA is better…” nope, but USPSA shooters are better. JJ won IDPA nationals in his first match. 
 

:D

 

I would totally run IDPA if they allowed AIWB micro guns with red dots and 15 round capacities, you know like I actually carry my P365X. 
 

The last time I tried IDPA I was top handgun by 40 seconds over 4 stages and 50 point thingies to the second place guy. 

 

Not really the point of this thread, though I MD both sports and I generally agree - the level of compete is higher in USPSA. USPSA shooters usually can transition more easily to IDPA than the reverse because the stages are half the size and all they really need to do is remember reload/engagement rules and come off the gas slightly. Also, if you were there, JJ's win comes with a HUGE asterisk. Like, the kind that's so big it can only be provided by the title sponsor if you shoot for their team.

 

Sounds like you might get your wish. Well, 10+1 capacity, but surely four rounds won't break you when you'd have a reload in the middle either way.

Edited by matteekay
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, matteekay said:

 

Not really the point of this thread, though I MD both sports and I generally agree - the level of compete is higher in USPSA. USPSA shooters generally can transition more easily to IDPA than the reverse because the stages are half the size and all they really need to do is remember reload/engagement rules and come off the gas slightly. Also, if you were there, JJ's win comes with a HUGE asterisk. Like, the kind that's so big it can only be provided by the title sponsor if you shoot for their team.

 

Sounds like you might get your wish. Well, 10+1 capacity, but surely four rounds won't break you when you'd have a reload in the middle either way.

 

Yeah, I don't shoot idpa, though I might if there were some matches around and even I think JJ winning was complete bs. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, -JCN- said:


Well, I’m glad you learned that you can draw that fast from concealment!

 

As for “USPSA is better…” nope, but USPSA shooters are better. JJ won IDPA nationals in his first match. 
 

:D

 

I would totally run IDPA if they allowed AIWB micro guns with red dots and 15 round capacities, you know like I actually carry my P365X. 
 

The last time I tried IDPA I was top handgun by 40 seconds over 4 stages and 50 point thingies to the second place guy. 

 

Damn, you dropped 50 points in a 4 stage match? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, -JCN- said:


Who cares?  USPSA isn’t a concealment game. AIWB wouldn’t meaningfully change my stage time for a field course. 
 

You could make GM from AIWB concealed if you got the right classifiers. Unloaded table starts, turn draws, etc. 

gabe's draw from concealment is faster than the average GM's draw from a race holster.

 

as far as the topic, I only shoot IDPA once or twice a year (usually with my actual carry gun), and I don't do junk carry, but I don't care if other people do, and I don't care if they compete that way.

Edited by motosapiens
Link to comment
Share on other sites

39 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Damn, you dropped 50 points in a 4 stage match? 


No sorry, I’m not well versed on IDPA terminology. I had a raw time of 87 with 3 points down for a final score of 90 points thingies. :D

 

The second place handgun was raw time 125 and 15 points down for 140 points thingies. 
 

So I beat him by forty ish seconds and final score differential of 50 points thingies. 
 

What do you call the units of final score? Because even though it might be seconds, it’s not really seconds. 

 

25 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

gabe's draw from concealment is faster than the average GM's draw from a race holster.


I don’t think that’s true apples to apples. What are you basing that information off of?
 

His last large National event:

 

2E3EC1D1-6D2B-438B-BAEE-D056E573568B.thumb.jpeg.10b81d32f1ed839e552729eee5395ea3.jpeg
 

He was 132nd and 65% of Open. Shot around where you’d expect an A class Limited shooter to be. 

My close open holster draw is around 0.65-0.71. See at the 3:12s mark. 

 


Gabe White had a concealed draw at 0.88 on his Vice Card challenge:

 

 

But what kind of accuracy did he have at those speeds?

 

Look at that poor shotgun target. 
 

728592AE-8166-41E6-BB1B-948930C3F13B.thumb.jpeg.6db6d8e8b8125c48c51af21c7f1d45f7.jpeg

 

I think most GMs can reliable hit a 7 yard target with an open 0.88 draw. 
 

Here’s some concealed goofing around. 0.69 concealed draws with fingers curled. 
 

 

Edited by -JCN-
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, -JCN- said:



Gabe White had a concealed draw at 0.88 on his Vice Card challenge:

 

 

I think most GMs can reliable hit a 7 yard target with an open 0.88 draw. 

 

 

Maybe you are right. maybe he is only "as fast as most GM's"

 

I observed him in a class consistently drawing under .8, and I have observed lots of open GM's at nationals that seem to have a slower than .8 draw but still manage to do GM stuff. You may now go back to telling everyone how great you are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, -JCN- said:


No sorry, I’m not well versed on IDPA terminology. I had a raw time of 87 with 3 points down for a final score of 90 points thingies. :D

 

The second place handgun was raw time 125 and 15 points down for 140 points thingies. 
 

So I beat him by forty ish seconds and final score differential of 50 points thingies. 
 

What do you call the units of final score? Because even though it might be seconds, it’s not really seconds. 

 


I don’t think that’s true apples to apples. What are you basing that information off of?
 

 

It's time plus, so your final score is seconds. Every point down adds 1 second to your score.

 

Back in the day it was half second per point down, that was more fun and IMO more realistic to the intended purpose. The way it is now you basically need to shoot clean, 3 points down on a 4 stage match is reasonable. Typically around here a typical 5 stage match puts the winners in the mid to upper 70's for raw time dropping anywhere from 3-10 points depending how difficult they make the shooting. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Maybe you are right. maybe he is only "as fast as most GM's"

 

I observed him in a class consistently drawing under .8, and I have observed lots of open GM's at nationals that seem to have a slower than .8 draw but still manage to do GM stuff. You may now go back to telling everyone how great you are.


Consider again his match performance at a major USPSA match. Nothing special.
 

Not to current M standards, consistent with “Legacy M” levels. 
 

You’re telling me that you’re comparing him goofing off in class to an Open division shooter with manual safety at the biggest event of the year?

 

You have some bizarrely rose colored glasses. 
 

BTW, I was comparing striker fire draw to striker fire draw. 
 

At least for me, manual safeties slow me down a little. My Open draw is slower than my CO draw by a tenth or two. 

 

I’m pretty good, better than you, but not as good as a number of people in my region. How’s that?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

 

He was 132nd and 65% of Open. Shot around where you’d expect an A class Limited shooter to be. 
 

 

I feel like your average A class limited guy probably isn't going to roll up to Nat's and finish 65% of a open shooter with a glock shooting minor from concealment. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I feel like your average A class limited guy probably isn't going to roll up to Nat's and finish 65% of a open shooter with a glock shooting minor from concealment. 


Who knows. If he’s really that fast from

concealment like @motosapienssays then his stage times don’t suffer at all from concealment so let’s make that assumption and say it’s not a handicap compared to others. 
 

If that’s the case and he’s running hicap in A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want he still got smoked by a number of CO B and A shooters just on shooting performance alone. 
 

Ashley Rheuark shooting a Glock 34 also finished 43rd at 76%. 
 

Clarification it was Area 1 in 2019, just a major not Nationals proper. 
 

C312BE71-70A2-41E6-9846-C2B7A2087399.thumb.png.7c0b8c49d8a3fab84252dff23928e292.png901A81DF-C5D7-4D16-8F53-9C95D45276C3.thumb.png.c7fb3d588844a38855ec7a395b0cf185.png

Edited by -JCN-
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, -JCN- said:


Consider again his match performance at a major USPSA match. Nothing special.

 

I made no claims about his match performance. I only pointed out that drawing from concealment he is damn fast. As an experienced shooter, you are probably well aware of how unimportant draw time is in major match results.

 

Quote

 If he’s really that fast from

concealment like @motosapienssays then his stage times don’t suffer at all from concealment so let’s make that assumption and say it’s not a handicap compared to others. 

I suspect his stage times may suffer a little from concealment because in my observation the reloads are definitely slower. In the grand scheme of things, I suspect the truly awe-inspiring big time open shooters like yourself are probably just doing the shooting part faster.

Edited by motosapiens
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I made no claims about his match performance. I only pointed out that drawing from concealment he is damn fast. As an experienced shooter, you are probably well aware of how unimportant draw time is in major match results.


Duly noted. 
 

For me, Fawbush is the gold standard of speed in the concealed draw. 
 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I suspect his stage times may suffer a little from concealment because in my observation the reloads are definitely slower. In the grand scheme of things, I suspect the truly awe-inspiring big time open shooters like yourself are probably just doing the shooting part faster.


I don’t think in high cap concealed reloads slow a stage down if placed with movement. What I don’t know and what could have definitely slowed him down is if he was only running 17 round magazines without extensions and had to do a full extra reload per long course. 
 

I’m mainly a CO shooter, I just started dabbling in Open this winter. Compensated major is definitely faster in tracking and recoil management than minor. But my mind’s eye is still in 9mm minor from CO. Gotta speed that up for Open. 

Edited by -JCN-
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, RangerTrace said:

Keep it friendly, friends.......

 

Good call. 

 

Re-centering because this topic is of serious interest to me: 

  • Do you have safety concerns with AIWB in IDPA? What are they?
  • How do you think the rules will have to change? I trying to determine if there's a viable way to OWB loading devices while AIWB carrying but I think it becomes either/or.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, matteekay said:

Do you have safety concerns with AIWB in IDPA? What are they?

 

Double-tapping on my own question... I don't find AIWB to be as big of a safety concern as the rest of IDPA seemingly does. The muzzle starts closer to 180, but the shooter has both hands closer to the gun on the draw and (typically) it requires less manipulation. I'd equate it to the 180 break that occurs with anyone using a FBI cant holster.

 

I do think it has to be mandated that the holster doesn't collapse with the gun removed. Even leather is okay as long as it's reinforced. We have some people using awful floppy leather holsters behind the hip right now and those are equally as dangerous as far as I'm concerned (equal chance of hitting a femoral artery, less chance of shooting their junk, higher chance of shooting the RO when holstering). 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

How does he finish in USPSA matches?

UPDATE: I looked under Baret Fawbush and he did show up! 2 matches in 2020....TTTG 11-16-19 and Tri-State Tactical Two Gun 2020 11-21-2020

 

 

So I called a serious Tac Timmy tonight, to ask about Fawbush since I have no clue who he is and when you pull him in Practiscore Competitor he does not show up.. My Timmy friend who just made Master in USPSA CO with a AIWB and is a recent 4 division Master in IDPA said the guy is a 100% instagram shooter and that is it! 

 

So back on track with the AIWB the guys who shoot them on a normal basis at our matches take some time to safely holster the pistol at make ready! I do think your joe blow off the street needs to spend some time working on holstering and drawing before doing on the timer. 

Edited by MarkS_A18138
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Evidently my membership is still good, so I took the survey. I am cautious, not even cautiously optimistic but just cautious, about how this will all turn out.

 

My aiwb draw is faster than my draw to the gun owb and under a vest. The reload can go either way.

 

I voted to allow aiwb, I voted yes for only non collapsible holsters. I voted hell no for futzing with the holster outside of the pants at LAMR. I left my own comments about it all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

RE what good shooting is, I love this definition, "Good shooting is doing the fundamentals perfectly, on demand, at speed, every time and under conditions not of your own choosing."  It is that final part that practice bay heroes and those awed by them seem to forget and ignore.

Edited by rowdyb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, MarkS_A18138 said:

 

So back on track with the AIWB the guys who shoot them on a normal basis at our matches take some time to safely holster the pistol at make ready! I do think your joe blow off the street needs to spend some time working on holstering and drawing before doing on the timer. 

 

this issue does not only apply to junk carry. People shoot themselves frequently reholstering in normal IWB and even OWB holsters. My old boss (20 yr cop and former ranger) managed to shoot himself in the calf when reholstering his backup gun during quarterly qualifications last year. Even experienced people can be careless if they're not careful.

 

When I shoot IDPA, I am most likely to do it with an IWB holster. I carry a DA/SA gun so it's a little more forgiving, but I am still exceedingly careful. It seems to me that reholstering a junk carry rig might actually be *safer* because you can see what you are doing more effectively. I have RO'd gabe on a number of occasions, and IIRC he would kind of point the holster slightly forward while holstering, so that if something did happen, an AD would hit the ground just in front of him instead of his nuts or femoral artery or kneecap. I admit I haven't tried this technique, but I do pay attention when holstering my normal IWB carry rig and make sure the barrel is pointing inwards as I do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, matteekay said:

 

Double-tapping on my own question... I don't find AIWB to be as big of a safety concern as the rest of IDPA seemingly does. The muzzle starts closer to 180, but the shooter has both hands closer to the gun on the draw and (typically) it requires less manipulation. I'd equate it to the 180 break that occurs with anyone using a FBI cant holster.

 

I do think it has to be mandated that the holster doesn't collapse with the gun removed. Even leather is okay as long as it's reinforced. We have some people using awful floppy leather holsters behind the hip right now and those are equally as dangerous as far as I'm concerned (equal chance of hitting a femoral artery, less chance of shooting their junk, higher chance of shooting the RO when holstering). 

 

I agree with you there. It's totally plausible to shoot your femoral artery with a botched OWB/IWB draw as well. I've seen people straight up point guns at themselves while holstering at 3 o'clock. The RO should stop the shooter if they're doing something idiotic on LAMR. Holstering a hot gun AIWB is not different and there's many videos on YT explaining how to do it safely.

 

Perhaps the MD's could add something to the safety briefings? It takes all of 8 seconds to explain how to do this safely.

 

I also agree that a non-collapsible holster is non-negotiable, if you plan to shoot competition in ANY carry position.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

People shoot themselves frequently reholstering in normal IWB and even OWB holsters.

 

True.  Last year a range near here had a leg shot when the know-it-all rammed his hair trigger CZ into a speed holster without the formality of setting the safety. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now



×
×
  • Create New...