Revo w/dot improve irons shooting?

[Makicjf]

I've decided to focus my dryfire on my dotted R8 in OSR for Steel Challenge.

I'm meeting my par times and really enjoying the dot.

I've also noticed when I do a few runs with irons, the are faster and I seem to have a quicker refocus and brighter, sharper image of the front sight.  When the dot is gone, my eyes snap back without effort.

It feels like dot practice is improving my irons dry fire.

Am I crazy , or can dot shooting improve your irons work?

Jason

Edited December 2, 2021 by Makicjf

[underlug]

"Am I crazy , or can dot shooting improve your irons work?"

 

The two are not mutually exclusive

[Makicjf]

1 hour ago, underlug said:

"Am I crazy , or can dot shooting improve your irons work?"

 

The two are not mutually exclusive

Perhaps, but for me irons practice did not improve my dot shooting.

It feels like a one-way street, to me

[MWP]

I think it goes both ways. Just have to make sure you properly adjust speed for the sights you’re using, especially in steel challenge.

[MikeyScuba]

I was going to shoot irons this weekend but wimped out for the ipsc match. It's been a year exactly since I started with the dot.  I'll see if they let me shoot both my guns at the ICORE match later in the day.  Curious.

 

[revoman]

I found going from dot to iron and I have a fiber optic front sight. I sometimes just focus on the fiber optic and don’t even line it up with the rear all the time. Accuracy goes down. 

[gargoil66]

23 hours ago, Makicjf said:

I've decided to focus my dryfire on my dotted R8 in OSR for Steel Challenge.

I'm meeting my par times and really enjoying the dot.

I've also noticed when I do a few runs with irons, the are faster and I seem to have a quicker refocus and brighter, sharper image of the front sight.  When the dot is gone, my eyes snap back without effort.

It feels like dot practice is improving my irons dry fire.

Am I crazy , or can dot shooting improve your irons work?

Jason

Jason:

 

I practiced today with dot and irons.  I have a green fiber optic front sight on my 625 and a dot on my 627.

 

I do not have a problem transitioning between the two sights.  

 

I do see an improvement with the irons after the dot sight, but it is temporary and I believe it is due to me knowing that by shifting to irons, I must attend to sight alignment to succeed.   Shifting between the two sights is a cue for me to attend to sight alignment and I do so, with excellent results.  Today this performance lasted for a number of iterations of Accelerator before my mind lost its focus on that simple act of sight alignment.  I shifted attention towards 'faster' with predictable results.  I knew why I started blasting ammo and got my attention back to sight alignment and shot well until fatigue took its toll and I finished my training for the day.

 

So, yes, I believe shooting the dot will improve iron performance but not necessarily because of the dot sight.  I think it is because you know you are going to a sight that needs a different approach for success so that is what you attend to and you do well.

 

Edit:  Yes guys, for me it is sight alignment, not sight picture or trigger control.  I can point it just fine and can pull the trigger well enough.  Sight picture is more a mental game with the irons for me.

 

GG66

 

Edited December 3, 2021 by gargoil66

[Squirrel45]

On 12/2/2021 at 7:28 AM, MWP said:

I think it goes both ways. Just have to make sure you properly adjust speed for the sights you’re using, especially in steel challenge.

Aint this the truth, telling yourself; ok slow down its not an open gun   I struggle with this and most things but RF to CF is another yikes 

[pskys2]

I've found the DOT shows any imperfections in the trigger pull.  The problem is to gain from this I need to "see" the Dot and that's the opposite of the best way to "shoot" the Dot.

But I agree that practicing with the Dot helps my IS shooting.  I struggle with the Dot as I don't "shoot the streak",  I seem to not be able to stop myself from stopping the Dot on the target and so waste time.  It's not just revolvers, it's a Dot on any platform that I do this with.

In SC shooting my 627's back to back with IS & OS, I'm consistently 3+ seconds faster with the IS over the full 8 stage SC Match.

[MWP]

Jason try setting your dry fire pars to unrealistically fast times for a while. 

[MWP]

On 12/3/2021 at 3:23 PM, Squirrel45 said:

Aint this the truth, telling yourself; ok slow down its not an open gun   I struggle with this and most things but RF to CF is another yikes 

I went into last years WSSC without much rimfire prep. It’s like I forgot the required pace that rimfire requires. It’s a completely different mindset than CF in terms of pace and risk vs reward. Some people still aren’t letting me forget it... 

[gargoil66]

On 12/4/2021 at 7:25 AM, pskys2 said:

I've found the DOT shows any imperfections in the trigger pull.  The problem is to gain from this I need to "see" the Dot and that's the opposite of the best way to "shoot" the Dot.

But I agree that practicing with the Dot helps my IS shooting.  I struggle with the Dot as I don't "shoot the streak",  I seem to not be able to stop myself from stopping the Dot on the target and so waste time.  It's not just revolvers, it's a Dot on any platform that I do this with.

In SC shooting my 627's back to back with IS & OS, I'm consistently 3+ seconds faster with the IS over the full 8 stage SC Match.

PK: 

 

Found with the dots that they are so fast compared to irons that it takes more time to develop a trust that the sight picture is good enough with the dot.  Out of the comfort zone of irons.  Pretty simple reason why.  A single point aiming system allows us to see the dot and target with equal clarity so the movement is more evident.  However, when we do look at the movement while the dot is on the target, we see that although it is moving, it is holding the same area (wobble area) as if we had a magnified optic on the blaster.  Seen movement is a stressor.  

 

I never really had problems dealing with dot sights on anything.  What I did have huge problems with was reliably picking up the dot on the draw.  Way easier to pick up a front sight of course.  

 

For a while, I had to work with guys who had problems with the M-68 sight.  Picking up the pace -- or at MP said, insanely short par times -- was normally a good solution.  The shooters saw the dot was moving around more than their irons and stressed out over it, thus destroying the trigger assy when they fired the shot -- and missed.  Many times, having them shoot faster did a lot of good because they didn't have time to see how much the dot was moving and screw up their trigger pull.

 

Personally, I stop on some targets, sweep others, stage the trigger for others and shoot when the dot hits the side of the steel.  Smoke and Hope I don't pick up the dot until the third steel.  So close a guy can just point and shoot until he picks up the dot.  Maybe I am picking it up but don't realize it?  Doesn't matter I guess.

 

GG66

 

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, gargoil66 said:

PK: 

 

Found with the dots that they are so fast compared to irons that it takes more time to develop a trust that the sight picture is good enough with the dot.  Out of the comfort zone of irons.  Pretty simple reason why.  A single point aiming system allows us to see the dot and target with equal clarity so the movement is more evident.  However, when we do look at the movement while the dot is on the target, we see that although it is moving, it is holding the same area (wobble area) as if we had a magnified optic on the blaster.  Seen movement is a stressor.  

 

I never really had problems dealing with dot sights on anything.  What I did have huge problems with was reliably picking up the dot on the draw.  Way easier to pick up a front sight of course.  

 

For a while, I had to work with guys who had problems with the M-68 sight.  Picking up the pace -- or at MP said, insanely short par times -- was normally a good solution.  The shooters saw the dot was moving around more than their irons and stressed out over it, thus destroying the trigger assy when they fired the shot -- and missed.  Many times, having them shoot faster did a lot of good because they didn't have time to see how much the dot was moving and screw up their trigger pull.

 

Personally, I stop on some targets, sweep others, stage the trigger for others and shoot when the dot hits the side of the steel.  Smoke and Hope I don't pick up the dot until the third steel.  So close a guy can just point and shoot until he picks up the dot.  Maybe I am picking it up but don't realize it?  Doesn't matter I guess.

 

GG66

 

Very good observations.  I've not had trouble picking up the Dot.  It just seems when I focus on the target I "lose?" the Dot.  It almost as if my vision doesn't see it?  Kind of like if a leaf blows across in front of my gun while shooting I don't see it. 

I put in a full year trying to get it down and never saw any improvement.  Even in ICORE where.  

Since I do shoot a lot of USPSA with a Revovler I've decided to just put the Dot aside and focus on Irons for everything.

[old558]

45 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Very good observations.  I've not had trouble picking up the Dot.  It just seems when I focus on the target I "lose?" the Dot.  It almost as if my vision doesn't see it?  Kind of like if a leaf blows across in front of my gun while shooting I don't see it. 

I put in a full year trying to get it down and never saw any improvement.  Even in ICORE where.  

Since I do shoot a lot of USPSA with a Revovler I've decided to just put the Dot aside and focus on Irons for everything.

I find I need to focus on the target, when I see the dot I pull the trigger, other wise I start moving my head to  dot and other wise mess up badly. Take what I say for what its worth as I am a B shooter closing in on A. As I think Jerry said its that simple but its just that hard.

Anyway best of luck, and thanks for all you posts as I really enjoy them.

[gargoil66]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

Very good observations.  I've not had trouble picking up the Dot.  It just seems when I focus on the target I "lose?" the Dot.  It almost as if my vision doesn't see it?  Kind of like if a leaf blows across in front of my gun while shooting I don't see it. 

I put in a full year trying to get it down and never saw any improvement.  Even in ICORE where.  

Since I do shoot a lot of USPSA with a Revovler I've decided to just put the Dot aside and focus on Irons for everything.

PK:

 

Never had anyone tell me they lost vision of the dot unless we were shooting in extremely bright conditions.  Worse was over snow, in a desert, in a brilliant sun.  Was with M-68's and they are pretty bright but almost not bright enough for that one.  Have taken that instance with me to this day because most of the places I compete are high desert with intensely bright sun.  Lesson learned?  Get the best dot sight you can buy that has a big enough and bright enough dot to be seen in the brightest conditions one may find and won't crap out on you without warning.  Amazing how few exist and none of them are cheap.  Anyway, as with any shooting sport, sights that work and won't fail cost a bundle. 

 

So, if you came up to me 'back in the day', saying you were losing the dot on a 68 sight, I would shoot the weapon and see if I lost the dot.  Would also see if the dot was bright enough or if the rheostat was working.   If all was OK but the guy was still saying he lost the dot I would have him close the front cover and use it like the older occluded eye systems.  If he still lost the dot, which when you close the front cover, is now a bright solid orange dot on a jet-black background, the guy needs 'hep' more than I can give. 

 

I can see guys losing dots that are too small or not powerful enough in bright conditions.  A lightly colored target and background doesn't help either.  Also, some guys have problems with seeing orange or lime green but probably not both, so it may be the color of the dot.   Can also see it happening if a guy is under a pretty significant amount of stress.  Since I doubt you feel your life is being threatened when you compete, I would probably go back to the tool itself as the issue if I wanted to pursue it.

 

Or -- guess what?  Some folks plainly do not like dot sights and will stick with their irons.  Bet they will be damn good with them too.  

 

GG66

[MikeyScuba]

Having shot both the RTS2 and slideride the slideride is definitely better but maybe just for me?  I had my eyeball lenses replaced so the slideride does not starburst like the micro dots.

[MWP]

1 hour ago, MikeyScuba said:

Having shot both the RTS2 and slideride the slideride is definitely better but maybe just for me?  I had my eyeball lenses replaced so the slideride does not starburst like the micro dots.

Outside of a tube that shades itself, the slide ride is tough to beat. Only reason I’m shooting an rts2 in SC is weight. 

[gargoil66]

14 hours ago, MikeyScuba said:

Having shot both the RTS2 and slideride the slideride is definitely better but maybe just for me?  I had my eyeball lenses replaced so the slideride does not starburst like the micro dots.

 

MS:

 

Is the starburst thing still happening with your lens replacement?  

 

I have a couple of Railways and the dots on them appear duller and fuzzy compared to the CR-2.  Do love being able to change modules though.  And they seem to hold zero when changed.

[MikeyScuba]

It was caused by the implants.  My wife had it done and several top shooters up here had it done too.  I didn't really need it was I just starting to get presbyopia but why wait until it got bad? 

https://www.myalcon.com/ca/en/panoptix/

 

It's been 9 months and supposedly the startbursting/haloing goes away in a year(?) but the more intense the light source the more halo's I get.  Nice not having to wear contact lenses and for everything but gunsmithing I don't need glasses.  Supposedly the brain learns to see "past" the halo's at some point?  I can live with it.

Oddly it seems I can now see the front sight without having to cover my left eye like I did when I was shooting irons before the surgery.  But I have not actually tried shooting irons at all and the MD wouldn't let me shoot both my revo's on the same squad this Sat past.

 

Another observation is that all those top shooters who had the surgery all shoot dots.  The old eyeballs can't transition to the front sight from the target like when we were younger...lol  No matter what you do.

[pskys2]

19 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

PK:

 

Never had anyone tell me they lost vision of the dot unless we were shooting in extremely bright conditions.  Worse was over snow, in a desert, in a brilliant sun.  Was with M-68's and they are pretty bright but almost not bright enough for that one.  Have taken that instance with me to this day because most of the places I compete are high desert with intensely bright sun.  Lesson learned?  Get the best dot sight you can buy that has a big enough and bright enough dot to be seen in the brightest conditions one may find and won't crap out on you without warning.  Amazing how few exist and none of them are cheap.  Anyway, as with any shooting sport, sights that work and won't fail cost a bundle. 

 

So, if you came up to me 'back in the day', saying you were losing the dot on a 68 sight, I would shoot the weapon and see if I lost the dot.  Would also see if the dot was bright enough or if the rheostat was working.   If all was OK but the guy was still saying he lost the dot I would have him close the front cover and use it like the older occluded eye systems.  If he still lost the dot, which when you close the front cover, is now a bright solid orange dot on a jet-black background, the guy needs 'hep' more than I can give. 

 

I can see guys losing dots that are too small or not powerful enough in bright conditions.  A lightly colored target and background doesn't help either.  Also, some guys have problems with seeing orange or lime green but probably not both, so it may be the color of the dot.   Can also see it happening if a guy is under a pretty significant amount of stress.  Since I doubt you feel your life is being threatened when you compete, I would probably go back to the tool itself as the issue if I wanted to pursue it.

 

Or -- guess what?  Some folks plainly do not like dot sights and will stick with their irons.  Bet they will be damn good with them too.  

 

GG66

It's not that the Dot disappears, it's my focus is such that I see the target and can't ID the relationship of the Dot.  I have the same issue with IS when I try to shoot with both eyes open.  Very likely some "circuitry" issue between my eyes and the main processing center?  

I tried for 2 years to shoot with both eyes open and when it worked, it was great.  The problem was when it didn't, lost the focus, it was a total train wreck!  

If we had Dots allowed in the USPSA Revolver Division, I would give it a total immersion type chance, AGAIN!  

For now, as a Super Senior, I've got my "shooting glasses" all set and will keep with Revolvers with Irons in both ICORE & USPSA!

FWIW, I don't believe it's a case of "teaching an old dog, new tricks"  as I've always been open to change but always have fallen back to reliable, if the "new" thing didn't help.

[gargoil66]

19 hours ago, MikeyScuba said:

It was caused by the implants.  My wife had it done and several top shooters up here had it done too.  I didn't really need it was I just starting to get presbyopia but why wait until it got bad? 

https://www.myalcon.com/ca/en/panoptix/

 

It's been 9 months and supposedly the startbursting/haloing goes away in a year(?) but the more intense the light source the more halo's I get.  Nice not having to wear contact lenses and for everything but gunsmithing I don't need glasses.  Supposedly the brain learns to see "past" the halo's at some point?  I can live with it.

Oddly it seems I can now see the front sight without having to cover my left eye like I did when I was shooting irons before the surgery.  But I have not actually tried shooting irons at all and the MD wouldn't let me shoot both my revo's on the same squad this Sat past.

 

Another observation is that all those top shooters who had the surgery all shoot dots.  The old eyeballs can't transition to the front sight from the target like when we were younger...lol  No matter what you do.

Mike:  Thanks for the poop.  I ask because some day I may have to go down that path so the more I know about it, the better my decisions.

 

Am 66 and have been complaining to my eye doc about floaters, dullness, etc but docs look at age related eye problems in terms of the 'average' person, which shooters are not.  There is an eye doc around where MWP lives who has done some pretty remarkable work with competitive shooters I know, but it would be out of my pocket totally.  I think if I got rid of the floaters and got some cataracts removed, I would probably be good to go for a number of years. 

 

I get a halo sort of thing with one of my Comp M-2's but not the other.  Go figure. 

 

I imagine the top shooters shoot dots, even if they got surgery and can probably do decently with irons again.  For me, I only have to concern myself with attaining a decent sight picture which is just fine.  I can still do OK with irons but it is more a struggle.

 

Dot sights sure do have limits though.  I can do OK with them on a IPSC steel under perfect conditions to about 500 with a rifle but that is more smoke and mirrors than practical.  300 is the practical distance in my view.  I tried a Comp M-2 on my Biathlon rifle last summer a couple of times.  Figured it would be pretty cool to shoot standing and it was.  Prone was pretty ugly.  Illegal in competition I know but wanted to see how it worked, or didn't.  Funny how most good ideas I have 'aren't' more than 'are'.  

 

GG66
 

[gargoil66]

On 12/6/2021 at 10:23 AM, pskys2 said:

It's not that the Dot disappears, it's my focus is such that I see the target and can't ID the relationship of the Dot.  I have the same issue with IS when I try to shoot with both eyes open.  Very likely some "circuitry" issue between my eyes and the main processing center?  

I tried for 2 years to shoot with both eyes open and when it worked, it was great.  The problem was when it didn't, lost the focus, it was a total train wreck!  

If we had Dots allowed in the USPSA Revolver Division, I would give it a total immersion type chance, AGAIN!  

For now, as a Super Senior, I've got my "shooting glasses" all set and will keep with Revolvers with Irons in both ICORE & USPSA!

FWIW, I don't believe it's a case of "teaching an old dog, new tricks"  as I've always been open to change but always have fallen back to reliable, if the "new" thing didn't help.

PK: 

 

Don't think I am trying to convince you to go to dots.  Some folks plain don't like them, and it is usually for the reason you state.  I never had a problem transitioning to them and although I did have some periodic issues with focus, a few iterations using the occluded technique settled them out.  I have not had to use that technique for a good ten years now.  Even with something as simple as a dot sight, a guy still has to condition himself to their use. 

 

I spent some time with my irons on a V Comp today.  Put a green fiber optic front sight on it and gave it a decent work out today.  Man, that V Comp would get into the steel and just hang there for that split second needed for a good trigger pull.   Was really happy with the sight, revolver, and my performance.   Switched to my OSR and shot it very well too.  I think the fact that with the irons I must really focus on sight alignment, picture, and trigger, transitioned well to the OSR today.   

 

Out of curiosity, what sort of dot sight were you using?  

 

GG66

 

 

[pskys2]

17 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

PK: 

 

Don't think I am trying to convince you to go to dots.  Some folks plain don't like them, and it is usually for the reason you state.  I never had a problem transitioning to them and although I did have some periodic issues with focus, a few iterations using the occluded technique settled them out.  I have not had to use that technique for a good ten years now.  Even with something as simple as a dot sight, a guy still has to condition himself to their use. 

 

I spent some time with my irons on a V Comp today.  Put a green fiber optic front sight on it and gave it a decent work out today.  Man, that V Comp would get into the steel and just hang there for that split second needed for a good trigger pull.   Was really happy with the sight, revolver, and my performance.   Switched to my OSR and shot it very well too.  I think the fact that with the irons I must really focus on sight alignment, picture, and trigger, transitioned well to the OSR today.   

 

Out of curiosity, what sort of dot sight were you using?  

 

GG66

 

 

I've used a PDP2&3 on Open USPSA guns in the '90's, currently in both USPSA CO (both on a G34 & a G34 MOS) & ICORE Open (627PC, 627Pro & even the 625PC) it's been a JPoint (sits lowest but the lens is plastic and got scarred up when on my G34's but does allow for a decent co-witness sight picture with a .300 FS), DPP 7.5moa (biggest windon by far) and 2 Vortex Venoms (6 moa dot I believe).

With the G34 MOS I have co-witness sights on it now with the Vortex and shoot it better than when I ran it without anything but the DOT (and I tend to shoot all but the 25yd+ hard shots with the co-witness).

[gargoil66]

1 hour ago, pskys2 said:

I've used a PDP2&3 on Open USPSA guns in the '90's, currently in both USPSA CO (both on a G34 & a G34 MOS) & ICORE Open (627PC, 627Pro & even the 625PC) it's been a JPoint (sits lowest but the lens is plastic and got scarred up when on my G34's but does allow for a decent co-witness sight picture with a .300 FS), DPP 7.5moa (biggest windon by far) and 2 Vortex Venoms (6 moa dot I believe).

With the G34 MOS I have co-witness sights on it now with the Vortex and shoot it better than when I ran it without anything but the DOT (and I tend to shoot all but the 25yd+ hard shots with the co-witness).

 

PK:

 

That is interesting and I appreciate your time on it.

 

I have a RTS-2 with a eight minute dot and a Razor with a 6 minute dot.  I prefer the C More because the dot is brighter and a bit more clear to my eyes.  Screen is bigger than the Razor too which helps me out sometimes.  Not as durable though.  I picked up a couple of Railways over twenty years ago and think they are OK but a PITA to zero and almost as big a PITA to change batteries.  The old ones are vampires too.  Leave a battery in them for more than a day and it is drained.  I did buy a newer model and it doesn't bleed power and uses the click rheostat.  Still a SWAG to zero it and still a PITA to change batteries.  Functional and durable though. 

 

Industry will have to bring out something pretty spectacular to warrant me spending any more money on dot sights. 

 

Again, thank you for your time!

 

GG66

[pskys2]

3 hours ago, gargoil66 said:

 

PK:

 

That is interesting and I appreciate your time on it.

 

I have a RTS-2 with a eight minute dot and a Razor with a 6 minute dot.  I prefer the C More because the dot is brighter and a bit more clear to my eyes.  Screen is bigger than the Razor too which helps me out sometimes.  Not as durable though.  I picked up a couple of Railways over twenty years ago and think they are OK but a PITA to zero and almost as big a PITA to change batteries.  The old ones are vampires too.  Leave a battery in them for more than a day and it is drained.  I did buy a newer model and it doesn't bleed power and uses the click rheostat.  Still a SWAG to zero it and still a PITA to change batteries.  Functional and durable though. 

 

Industry will have to bring out something pretty spectacular to warrant me spending any more money on dot sights. 

 

Again, thank you for your time!

 

GG66

"Vampire"!  that's funny.