Mamba, Kraken, or CWA?

[BentAero]

I've been shooting a Smith & Wesson Victory since the gun was launched, but thinking hard on a new RFPO gun. The only ones under serious consideration are the Volquartsen Black Mamba, a CWA 2011, and a built-up TK Kraken.

 

I recently borrowed a CWA for a month, shooting it in 3 matches and 2k rounds or so of practice. I did well with it, but it's weight is both a blessing and a curse. It's super comfortable and stable, but that weight is a giant pendulum for my old-man weak upper body.

 

I'm fortunate that I'm able to borrow a Black Mamba tomorrow for an extended stay, so I'll be able to try that platform long enough to get acclimated to it. Since I just returned the CWA, it'll be interesting to compare.

 

Last but not least is the idea of building a Kraken-frame 22/45. Are these essentially an aluminum frame version of the Black Mamba?

 

The CWA is obviously the heaviest. I'm assuming the Volk would be in the middle, and Kraken the lightest.

 

What are your pros and cons of each?

Edited December 1, 2021 by BentAero
Typo

[JakeMartens]

If you are just running optics look at the Mamba X

I really like the Mambas compared to the others

[revolver45]

I think your best bet would be the Franken Gun. I have tried all three and building it my way worked for me. I took a Ruger Mk 4 and put a Volquartsen upper on it with all internal parts from Tandam Kross. 

[George Jones]

CWA built mine on a single-stack Caspian frame.  Very light and it has performed flawlessly for two years now.

[AzShooter]

I say go with the Black Mamba.  I've enjoyed mine for 3 years now.  It's extremely accurate, well balanced feels good in my hand.  I've shot well over 90K rounds with it.  I only had one problem at 85K a small piece of the top end broke off.  Volquartsen fixed in in 4 days.  Great turnaround.  The barrel was still good but they asked if I'd like a new one for $100  so I added a new barrel to my new upper instead of them installing the original.  Not bad upgrade.

 

I shot a CWA and they are exceptional pistols. It's a good thing you can try both.

 

The only reason for the Kraken that I see is the extra weight. You lose the instant one button takedown and you have to buy a complete frame to be able to make a Kraken, Ruger sells all but 3 parts and you need them to make it work.

[zzt]

CWA hands down.  I run mine on a 1911 45 receiver.  It is hands down the best setup I've tried.  One of the reasons is the mags.  GSG 1911 mags run 100% with no tuning.  Advantage arms mags need to be modified to accommodate the CWA feed ramp.  After that; 100%.  Both are sprung just like any 1911 mag, and the springs hold up.  I changed the springs on my GSG mags last year after three seasons, just in case.  I don't use the AA mags as often, so they are still original.

 

Following is a list of the pistols I shot extensively for steel.  All of them had failings of one sort or another.  The biggest disappointment was the Volquartsen Scorpion.  For what I paid for that it should have been stellar.  It was not.  It went back to the factory three times and they still didn't make it right.

 

High Standard Supermatic 107 Hamden gun- best trigger.  Hammerli X-Esse- most accurate.  Ruger MkIII- yuck.  Full race Buckmark- superb gun, but eventual mag and feeding problems just like Ruger an the Scorpion.  

 

So that brought me to CWA.  I talked to Chet extensively, and had him build me an upper before it was an official product.  I love it.  Now, after five full SCSA seasons it still runs 100%.  The only potential drawback is using standard velocity ammo.  That is iffy,  I run CCI AR Tactical in it.  Zero issues.  It runs 40gr MiniMags just as well.

 

The Supermatic ran flawlessly, but it was heavy with the custom bull barrel and transitioned slowly.  I originally bought it for bullseye.  Same with the X-Esse.  Don't use bullseye guns for SCSA.

[Tampa-XD45]

3 hours ago, zzt said:

CWA hands down.  I run mine on a 1911 45 receiver.  It is hands down the best setup I've tried.  One of the reasons is the mags.  GSG 1911 mags run 100% with no tuning.  Advantage arms mags need to be modified to accommodate the CWA feed ramp.  After that; 100%.  Both are sprung just like any 1911 mag, and the springs hold up.  I changed the springs on my GSG mags last year after three seasons, just in case.  I don't use the AA mags as often, so they are still original.

 

Following is a list of the pistols I shot extensively for steel.  All of them had failings of one sort or another.  The biggest disappointment was the Volquartsen Scorpion.  For what I paid for that it should have been stellar.  It was not.  It went back to the factory three times and they still didn't make it right.

 

High Standard Supermatic 107 Hamden gun- best trigger.  Hammerli X-Esse- most accurate.  Ruger MkIII- yuck.  Full race Buckmark- superb gun, but eventual mag and feeding problems just like Ruger an the Scorpion.  

 

So that brought me to CWA.  I talked to Chet extensively, and had him build me an upper before it was an official product.  I love it.  Now, after five full SCSA seasons it still runs 100%.  The only potential drawback is using standard velocity ammo.  That is iffy,  I run CCI AR Tactical in it.  Zero issues.  It runs 40gr MiniMags just as well.

 

The Supermatic ran flawlessly, but it was heavy with the custom bull barrel and transitioned slowly.  I originally bought it for bullseye.  Same with the X-Esse.  Don't use bullseye guns for SCSA.

Which 1911 lower?  The CWA conversion didn't work on my STI Trojan (didn't run) or DW PM9 (didn't fit).

 

The OP may be referencing Chet's full custom 2011-22 gun which is fantastic but around $2,300 fully loaded IIRC.

[zzt]

2 hours ago, Tampa-XD45 said:

Which 1911 lower?  The CWA conversion didn't work on my STI Trojan (didn't run) or DW PM9 (didn't fit).

 

The OP may be referencing Chet's full custom 2011-22 gun which is fantastic but around $2,300 fully loaded IIRC.

 

Almost all of the 22 conversions will not work on 9mm receivers because of the shape of the ejector.  I run mine on either of my 45 ACP 1911 receivers.  No problem with a 45 ejector.  The slide can easily be milled out to work with 9mm ejectors.

 

The OP was talking about Chet's full custom single stack 2011.  However, Chet also make custom 1911s.  They are lighter than the 2011s, because there is so much metal left in the single stack Aluminum grip on the 2011.

[mscott]

If you were wanting the tandem cross lower for being aluminum you might consider the Volquartsen scorpion since it’s basically the same as the black mamba but with their aluminum competition lower. They use the older takedown system but I’ve had that system for years and it’s a piece of cake once you know what you’re doing. I have a 4.5” and 6” Scorpion and they are very nice quality guns. They run standard velocity ammo perfectly.
 

I would certainly not steer you away from a CWA as I’ve known Chet for a few years and his guns are as good as it gets as well. You can’t go wrong with your choices at this point.

[motosapiens]

If you want a hassle, I would build something up fancy. If you want it to run, I would just buy a volquartsen. If you want it to run and be cheap, I would get a ruger 22-45 and put a VQ action kit in it. We have 2 scorpions, 1 ruger (steel bull barrel) with vq action kit, and one bone stock buckmark. I have shot my best times with two cheap guns, but mrs moto is faster than me and she prefers the scorpions. Even tho she set 2 stage world records with the ruger (that only lasted until later in the week, lol).

 

all 4 of the guns are 100% reliable, but the ruger needs to be kept a little cleaner around the front to avoid light strikes. I just clean it before any major match.

[mwx40x40]

CWA .

[zzt]

20 hours ago, Tampa-XD45 said:

Which 1911 lower?  The CWA conversion didn't work on my STI Trojan (didn't run) or DW PM9 (didn't fit).

 

The OP may be referencing Chet's full custom 2011-22 gun which is fantastic but around $2,300 fully loaded IIRC.

 

Sorry, I did not fully answer your question.  I run the CWA on my Sig Tacops 1911 45 receiver, and my custom 1911 45 built on an STI receiver.

 

There are other reasons a conversion may not run on an otherwise suitable receiver.  One is mag catch height.  For example, the Nelson conversion wants to see GI spec mag catch height, or it would run.  The ejector rubs on the top of the feed lips and is pushed upwards.  Both my 1911 45 have higher mag catch shelves so they run flawlessly with the Wilson ETM (old style) mags I use.  I sent it back for a refund.

 

Another reason is slide stop hole location.  The slide stop locates the barrel.  The CWA works perfectly on the two receivers I mentioned, but would have required a slight modification to work on the JEM Guns receiver that because the base for my custom 1911 SCSA Open gun.

 

Yet another reason is not all 1911 receivers are milled the same.  For example, if you intend to use it on an STI receive, the sides of the round lug have to be milled flat to fit.  Chet does this on request.  There may be other reasons, but these four are the ones I've run into.

[mpmo]

I have a stock black mamba and a full CWA 2011 custom (but standard) build. Both are truly awesome guns and I love to shoot them both.  The CWA is my RFPO and the Black Mamba is now for RFPI.  If I cared more about RFPI, I would get a second slide for the CWA.  

 

A couple observations.  To note I am a mid-40's, low A class shooter just through my second season of competing in SCSA.  I made A class at the Ohio state match first time shooting the CWA gun this past summer.  No question I am faster and more confident with it.

 

1.The trigger on the CWA is crazy good and for me way better than the Black Mamba.  It could just be me, but I noticed that pulling the trigger on the Black Mamba tended to pull the muzzle down.  I would have to focus on pulling it straight back.  I could probably work that out in training.  The extra weight of the CWA, the gas petal and the way the mag well locks your grip in could be contributing factors to the IMHO supurb trigger pull.

 

2.Speaking of the CWA mag well.  I hated the way my hands felt at first.  The feel like they are squeezed in, with not enough room for my hands on the gun.  But after shooting it for about a week, I found the effect it had on locking my grip in place was exceptional and preferred.

 

3.I run Mini-mag target and Eley Force.  Both run flawless.  Standard Velocity is not recommended but I have never tried any.

 

4.The gun was not built to run in temperatures under i believe 50 or 60 degrees.  However, up here in Ohio, I run it in the 30's without any malfunctions.

 

5.Both guns prefer to be cleaned more than any other guns I own.  No difference between the two.  They both seem to want to be cleaned every 4-500rds.

 

6.The CWA needs a break in period (800 rds with HV ammo.). The Black Mamba does not.  My CWA had malfunctions until I had at least 600 rds through it. 

 

7.I never had to tune my mags on the Black Mamba although I've heard some people have had to do that.  I do recommend either getting the Volquartzen mags or fully upgrading stock Rugers with Tandemkross parts.  Both work flawlessly.  

 

8.I do like that the comp is removable on the Black Mamba for cleaning, but I could never get it to stay tight on the gun, even when cranking on it with the provided wrench.  It would come loose by the end of a match or range session.  Could be something I was doing wrong.  I never used loktite or anything.  I do recommend their pulverizer for cleaning or whatever it's called.  

 

Either choice is a great one.  Let us know what you think when you have fully tested both!

 

 

[zzt]

1 hour ago, mpmo said:

4.The gun was not built to run in temperatures under i believe 50 or 60 degrees.  However, up here in Ohio, I run it in the 30's without any malfunctions.

 

Well, we shoot SCSA all year round at one of my clubs.    I can tell you for a fact the CWA works perfectly well at 23 deg. F.  Below freezing I use the old bullseye shooter trick of putting a line of lube on the top round in a mag.  Works like a charm.  Another note:  use copper washed bullets in the Winter.  The wax on lubed lead bullets hardens and causes feeding problems in tight chambers. The soft/liquid wax on SK Standard +, Geco, Wolf and Lapua does not have that problem.

 

I shoot AR Tactical, or target Minimags when I can't get them.  No issues in Winter. 

[mpmo]

19 hours ago, zzt said:

 

Well, we shoot SCSA all year round at one of my clubs.    I can tell you for a fact the CWA works perfectly well at 23 deg. F.  Below freezing I use the old bullseye shooter trick of putting a line of lube on the top round in a mag.  Works like a charm.  Another note:  use copper washed bullets in the Winter.  The wax on lubed lead bullets hardens and causes feeding problems in tight chambers. The soft/liquid wax on SK Standard +, Geco, Wolf and Lapua does not have that problem.

 

I shoot AR Tactical, or target Minimags when I can't get them.  No issues in Winter. 

 

That is great to know!  I haven't shot any matches in that weather with the CWA yet.  But given it's performance so far, I'm not surprised.  

 

I have noticed that with my mini-mags lately in the cold, the wax has hardened to the point where more than 50% don't come out of the ammo packaging holes.  When this happens, I don't use those rounds durning a match.  

[zzt]

2 hours ago, mpmo said:

I have noticed that with my mini-mags lately in the cold, the wax has hardened to the point where more than 50% don't come out of the ammo packaging holes.  When this happens, I don't use those rounds during a match.  

 

CCI occasionally produces batches of everything with too much wax on them.  That is one of the reasons I use CCI AR Tactical.  They have a specific nose shape designed to feed in M&P 15-22s.  It has very little wax on it.  I have zero feeding problems with them.  When I was ROing the East Coast Steel Challenge matches I noted what everyone was using.  Fully half the shooters were using AR Tactical in their pistols.  There were Minimags, Eley Force and Contact and lots of bulk junk.  The only people having problems were using bulk ammo.

 

Most of the ammo with the soft/liquid wax coating are standard velocity.  However, the Geco Semi-Auto is listed at 1150fps.  That is hot enough to run the CWA with the variable spring.  If you get some, bring a towel.  You'll have to wipe your hands after loading even in Winter.  I shot them all through the Winter in my 10/22 with no issues.

[revolver45]

Guys. Get a 10 shot revolver (S&W or Ruger) and load whatever you can get your hands on and just keep pulling the trigger. Bottom feeders are too temperamental. 

[BentAero]

The VolKrak has won.

 

I was largely 50/50 on the MK IV platform vs. CWA, but after talking with Chet, circumstances have caused him to be backed up 3 months. Can't wait that long, so I've ordered a Kraken frame, a Volquartsen Mamba-X upper and bolt, and a 6 MOA FTP Sports Alpha 3 optic. With luck, all should arrive next week.

 

Who knows? I may end up ordering a CWA 2011 next year anyway. If the wife would just get another job... Hmmm.

 

Re: The FTP optic, I've had a 8 MOA Alpha 3 on my CO for a couple years, and love it. Absolutely the most under-rated, unknown optic on the market. Crisp, clear, super bright, It's like a Trijicon SRO and a Sig Romeo Max had a baby.

 

Thanks for everyone's input. I'll post a pic when completed.

[apoc4lypse]

On 12/7/2021 at 2:11 PM, zzt said:

Fully half the shooters were using AR Tactical in their pistols.

 

Interesting; I like AR Tactical for my rifle but I don't use it in my Black Mamba as I've noticed that it's possible for me to outshoot the magazine refresh rate.  I think it's because the bullet shape causes more drag on the inside of the magazine compared to the Minimags I use for competition or the Blazers I use in practice.

[revolver45]

According to Scott Volquartsen himself,  Volquartsen firearms are designed to use standard velocity CCI ammo. Not Mini Mags. 

[AzShooter]

I've got over 85K rounds of Blazer and Mini Mags through my Black Mamba and it's working great.

 

When I use CCI SV I get a few jams per match and I get a lot of very low powered round that almost don't exit the barrel.  I've been stopped a number of times when the RO thought I had one stuck in the barrel.

 

I've  never had those problems with Blazers and Mini Mags.

 

[apoc4lypse]

It does seem like the brass ejects really far on both my Black Mamba and Ultralite when using Minimags or Blazers, or even AR Tactical.  So they probably could use stronger recoil springs.

[mchapman]

2 minutes ago, apoc4lypse said:

It does seem like the brass ejects really far on both my Black Mamba and Ultralite when using Minimags or Blazers, or even AR Tactical.  So they probably could use stronger recoil springs.

James, if it ain't broke don't fix it. It's working for you now I wouldn't mess with it.

[Hoops]

FWIW..............I use SK SV ammo for my Black Mamba's.  I just roll off some of the excess slick coating and they feed 100%.  When I practice and want to use other ammo such as Aquila Pistol Match that has a heavy coating, I rub off the heavy wax on the tip using a rag or folded paper towel.  With a little downward pressure, I can get the tip of the bullet clean which gives me less drag in the mag.   I get 100% reliabilty when I do this.  Doesn't take that long to clean up a couple hundred rounds.

 

 

 

[jrdoran]

On 11/30/2021 at 8:48 PM, JakeMartens said:

If you are just running optics look at the Mamba X

I really like the Mambas compared to the others

 

I'm on the fence w/the mamba-x vs traditional mamba with rail.  Reasoning is freedom of ability to mount optic fore / aft.  With the mamba-x pre-drilled, you only get a single position for such as c-more slide ride.   Probably not an issue for most, but I'm partial to having my optic closer to the rear of the gun than most. 

 

PS, current VQ Scorpion runs HV and SV.  I prefer SV

 

@BentAero+1 on the VoltKrak