2022 USPSA Classic Nats

[RangerMcFadden]

Nats for SS/Revo/L10 will be May 21-22 at CMP Talladega.

[PatJones]

Who's going? I'm considering it.

[Fishbreath]

I'm also considering it. I may do the nearby area matches instead—I haven't trained up for a big match that early in the year before, so it might behoove me to try that in 2022 before I spend the money on nationals.

 

On the other hand, there aren't a lot of wheelgunners around here, and it'd be cool to shoot in a bigger field of competitors.

[waterboy]

I'd like to go, but Bianchi Cup is the next weekend so I'm going to have to decide one or the other.

[ysrracer]

Is this the Lo Cap nationals?

[waterboy]

No they are calling it Classic Nationals since it's Single Stack, Revolver and L10. Production is in October with Limited and Open

[PatJones]

18 hours ago, waterboy said:

No they are calling it Classic Nationals since it's Single Stack, Revolver and L10. Production is in October with Limited and Open

It's all the divisions that no one but us cares about. That's why it's early in the season before the snow States can even get out and practice. We're second class citizens.

[matteekay]

4 hours ago, PatJones said:

It's all the divisions that no one but us cares about. That's why it's early in the season before the snow States can even get out and practice. We're second class citizens.

 

Harsh. Not wrong, but harsh.

[ysrracer]

4 hours ago, PatJones said:

It's all the divisions that no one but us cares about. That's why it's early in the season before the snow States can even get out and practice. We're second class citizens.

 

Ouch

[dhain]

I haven’t been doing this very long (a little over a year).  I went to the IRC this year and there were 120 competitors.  It seems odd to me that the USPSA nationals could only attract 39 revolver shooters this year.

[BritinUSA]

Revolver participation has been declining for a long time.

[matteekay]

27 minutes ago, dhain said:

I haven’t been doing this very long (a little over a year).  I went to the IRC this year and there were 120 competitors.  It seems odd to me that the USPSA nationals could only attract 39 revolver shooters this year.

 

That actually seemed low for the IRC. I only shot it in 2018 but it was 173 folks back then. I wonder how much is general decline and how much is the fact that most of us need a VERY specific handload (and primer) to compete, whereas most other divisions/sports have the option of factory ammo. 

[ysrracer]

1 minute ago, matteekay said:

 

That actually seemed low for the IRC. I only shot it in 2018 but it was 173 folks back then. I wonder how much is general decline and how much is the fact that most of us need a VERY specific handload (and primer) to compete, whereas most other divisions/sports have the option of factory ammo. 

 

Not to mention the scamdemic

[PatJones]

24 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Revolver participation has been declining for a long time.

I dunno, we were getting more revo shooters than production or single stack shooters for a while last year in eastern Colorado 

[dhain]

I guess I was wondering if USPSA revolver nationals had the same kind of participation as the IRC would there be less people wanting to kill the division?  Or has the “kill revolver” theme been a thing for a while?  Seems like I hear that on a lot of podcasts and such.

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, dhain said:

Or has the “kill revolver” theme been a thing for a while?  Seems like I hear that on a lot of podcasts and such.

 

I hear it on podcasts from what I jokingly refer to as the Production Mafia, who haven't yet accepted that their division is in essentially the same boat, just delayed a few years. I do mean to send the article I wrote on why revolver belongs in USPSA to Hopkins at some point, since he's one of the guys who (jokingly or not) said 'axe revolver' on a podcast. The best questions to ask anyone who's in favor of big division shakeups are, "How do division changes improve the game?" and "How does your plan accomplish that?"

 

The most common answer I come across is, "Too many divisions are bad, because it dilutes competition." There are a few points against it. For one, seven divisions is not to that point yet. For another, those seven divisions cover nearly every handgun you might want to compete with, and slice the world of handguns into segments in which the competition is at least not facially unfair. Finally, the complaint about dilution of competition is illogical in the first place. We aren't hiding vast hordes of quality shooters in Revolver because there aren't vast hordes of us to begin with, and if there were vast hordes of us, we wouldn't be having the conversation about Revolver being a small division. In any event, given how the division system achieves its goal of dividing up guns based broadly on features, arguments for killing revolver are basically arguments against competitive equity, with shades of 'stop it, you're having fun wrong'.

 

I'll be interested to see activity figures for 2021, assuming the 2022 annual report has Foley-like charts.

[Makicjf]

I'll be there.  I may actually be foolish enough to shoot major.  I enjoy shooting my 625 more, plus, I have ammo and primers to feed it.   I'd be saving SPP for Steel Challenge.  I'd also be working towards my goal of improving on my 3rd place finish in L6( a subset of a subset that no one cares about!   ) at the IRC.  

Yeah, I'll be there, and I'll shoot major!  

Jason

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

I'll be interested to see activity figures for 2021, assuming the 2022 annual report has Foley-like charts.

 

They posted some of that stuff on the live video of the membership meeting. Revolver was 1.37% of the participation. 

 

What I think the kill revolver boils down to is coming from people who see USPSA as a competition. Revolver shooters aren't really competing. Sure they think they are, they look at the overall or say things like "I'm competition against myself" or "I just want to get better" or what ever. All those are fine reasons to shoot USPSA but you could just as easily accomplish all of those things in Open. Out side of one match a year the most you'll ever compete against in Revo is like 3 or 4 guys. And that's going to only be at a Area match and you need to be B or C class. If you're GM, you can only hope that maybe one match a year out side of Nat's you'll actually get to shoot against another guy who works just as hard as you. 

 

This is why you don't see many guys who really work at this stuff shooting Revolver, and why they see Revolver as a joke. 

[matteekay]

8 hours ago, PatJones said:

I dunno, we were getting more revo shooters than production or single stack shooters for a while last year in eastern Colorado 

 

Yeah, but 100% of them are in this thread.

[Fishbreath]

9 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Out side of one match a year the most you'll ever compete against in Revo is like 3 or 4 guys. And that's going to only be at a Area match and you need to be B or C class. If you're GM, you can only hope that maybe one match a year out side of Nat's you'll actually get to shoot against another guy who works just as hard as you. 

 

A8 had 15 revolvers last year. Most of the L2s near me have at least the 5 needed for recognition. Is that a lot? No. But it's also not quite as dire as you say.

 

9 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

What I think the kill revolver boils down to is coming from people who see USPSA as a competition. Revolver shooters aren't really competing. [...] This is why you don't see many guys who really work at this stuff shooting Revolver, and why they see Revolver as a joke. 

 

This falls under the "you're having fun/competing wrong" objection. What is Revolver harming? How is the game improved by removing it?

 

Bear in mind that your answer probably also applies to Single Stack in a year or two, and Production by 2025.

Edited October 21, 2021 by Fishbreath

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

A8 had 15 revolvers last year. Most of the L2s near me have at least the 5 needed for recognition. Is that a lot? No. But it's also not quite as dire as you say.

 

 

This falls under the "you're having fun/competing wrong" objection. What is Revolver harming? How is the game improved by removing it?

 

Bear in mind that your answer probably also applies to Single Stack in a year or two, and Production by 2025.

 

This year it had 9, one GM, one A the rest B.

 

I didn't say you're having fun wrong, I said you're not actually competing. Which you're not, certainly not in the same way people in the other divisions are. If you're goal is fun that can be had without a division. Most club matches you'll be the only guy anyway. But hey congrats you're a winner too.

 

If suddenly only 1% of people shot Open, then we should kill open. Lucky for everyone no matter how few people shoot a division we won't get rid of them so it doesn't matter. The flip side that means some divisions are still a joke and you'll have to deal with some s#!t. 

[Fishbreath]

4 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I didn't say you're having fun wrong, I said you're not actually competing. Which you're not, certainly not in the same way people in the other divisions are.

 

At the very least, I'm competing against the classification system, the same way the one Open guy at a 20-man club in the middle of nowhere is.

 

5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

If suddenly only 1% of people shot Open, then we should kill open.

 

Why? What is a division that only attracts 1% of shooters harming? How does it improve the game to remove it?

[CocoBolo]

8 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

At the very least, I'm competing against the classification system, the same way the one Open guy at a 20-man club in the middle of nowhere is.

 

 

Why? What is a division that only attracts 1% of shooters harming? How does it improve the game to remove it?

Not everyone goes to the match thinking they are going to win the Hummer.    I don't go to a match thinking who can I beat today.  I'm more into my hit factor than how I finish.  At 73 I know that I'm probably not going to out run a 20 something, I shoot because it is fun.  I shoot Open, because I like it, but if the mood strikes it could be Limited, SS, CO, or PCC.  Before CO and PCC came along everyone aspired to shoot open. 

[Racinready300ex]

14 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

 

At the very least, I'm competing against the classification system, the same way the one Open guy at a 20-man club in the middle of nowhere is.

 

 

Why? What is a division that only attracts 1% of shooters harming? How does it improve the game to remove it?

 

I assume that means they finally fixed the revolver classification system? 8 shots jacked that s#!t up good. You could still utilize the classification system shooting your revolver in another division. Prod would probably be the best fit with a 8 shot gun.

 

You wanted to know why people want to kill it I gave you a reason, doesn't matter if you like it or not. For the most part I've noticed a trend, the guys that want to kill unpopular divisions are guys that put in a lot of work at this and are better the better shooters. Most Revolver shooters aren't these guys, so they probably aren't going to be on the same page. 

 

At the end of the day revolver still isn't a relevant division and none of this matter because it's not going anywhere. 

[twodownzero]

56 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

If suddenly only 1% of people shot Open, then we should kill open. Lucky for everyone no matter how few people shoot a division we won't get rid of them so it doesn't matter. The flip side that means some divisions are still a joke and you'll have to deal with some s#!t. 

 

Open is the division for innovation.  It should never be removed from the game regardless of its popularity.

 

If everyone who wanted to shoot Carry Optics would have just flooded Open, I bet we would have learned an awful lot about how little importance single action triggers, magwells, and comps have in winning.  I'm quite certain at this point that there are some CO shooters who can hang with the people at the top of Open despite the equipment disadvantage.  I'm long on record as opposing the creation of Carry Optics, and one of the biggest reasons (in my head) that dots should have never been allowed outside of Open is to see how that kind of equipment compares to "cutting edge" equipment, which is what Open is all about for me (innovation at the highest level).