Any gun for carry optics that have legal thumb rest and co-witness red dot?

[satoshi]

I'm looking for gun that have thumb rest and co-witness red dot for USPSA carry optics.

 

But I think below glock thumb rest is illegal for USPSA carry optics.
By the fact
・It is not "safeties, slide lock levers, slide lock releases and take down levers"

    in https://nroi.org/miscellaneous/questions-answers-and-rulings/#more-422
・Or it may simply violate " Grips may not be modified to create a thumb rest or beavertail."
     in Regulation AppD7 21.4

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also please note I'm left hand shooter.

 

And other than glock milling, I find almost of carry optics gun don't have usable iron sight on it.

So, If there is any gun matches my wish, I want to know that.

thumbrest I'm currently using for glock

 

 

co-witness red dot for glock (referring jagerwerks)

[SGT_Schultz]

That beavertail thing with a thumbrest is not legal at all.  Thumb rests are crutches, unnecessary with a correct grip.

 

Irons tall enough to be seen through the optic is something you will have to setup using aftermarket sights.  Don't know why you would want them.  They are completely unnecessary.

[BoyGlock]

12 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

That beavertail thing with a thumbrest is not legal at all.  Thumb rests are crutches, unnecessary with a correct grip.

 

Irons tall enough to be seen through the optic is something you will have to setup using aftermarket sights.  Don't know why you would want them.  They are completely unnecessary.

Fully agree 100%

[Frito]

On 10/16/2021 at 4:48 PM, SGT_Schultz said:

That beavertail thing with a thumbrest is not legal at all.  Thumb rests are crutches, unnecessary with a correct grip.

 

Irons tall enough to be seen through the optic is something you will have to setup using aftermarket sights.  Don't know why you would want them.  They are completely unnecessary.

 

Thanks for the confirmation.  The way I learned gripping is never press force with the supporting hand thumb, just softly land it on the frame as it may affect the muzzle.  Therefore I'm quite puzzled seeing many mod made a thumb rest even in open gun, allegedly mitigating recoil.  

 

On the other hand, the co-wit iron sight would be fine with CO, correct?

[hitman_usmc]

Yes, you can co witness, but the great majority don’t have any irons at all since you don’t need them. 

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, Frito said:

the co-wit iron sight would be fine with CO, correct?

Yes, but completely unnecessary.  Some people, who have no idea how to use an optics-sighted pistol, think that cowitnessed irons are needed to find the dot.  They are wrong.

 

I don't even bother with then on my carry pistols.  At any reasonable self-defense distance there are ways to make effective hits just using index and the optics body.

[Frito]

I guess iron sight as a backup in case optics goes out.  But more I shoot more I agree with you that in near distance the index plus any slide outfit would do just fine.

[SGT_Schultz]

56 minutes ago, Frito said:

I guess iron sight as a backup in case optics goes out.  But more I shoot more I agree with you that in near distance the index plus any slide outfit would do just fine.

Don't take my word for it.  Test the idea yourself.

 

I did and that's why I don't care about irons any more.

[satoshi]

On 10/17/2021 at 8:48 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

That beavertail thing with a thumbrest is not legal at all.  Thumb rests are crutches, unnecessary with a correct grip.

 

Irons tall enough to be seen through the optic is something you will have to setup using aftermarket sights.  Don't know why you would want them.  They are completely unnecessary.

Why not having crutches for easier grip...!

I can shoot without thumbrest, but better / faster with thumbrest

[satoshi]

Question for non iron sight shooter

Is your stance (grip, head position etc.) different between iron sight only and optic only?

I have toy gun glock with red dot that don't co-witness with front sight.

But if I draw gun with natural stance as iron sight only glock, I almost can't see the dot, and take time to find it.

 

Since 3gun don't have carry optic class (and I don't want to go open class) so

I still want to keep my iron sight only stance.

I think co-witness sight configuration, or probably more accurately speaking, low mounted red dot

that may co-witness with sight, helps me

[SGT_Schultz]

33 minutes ago, satoshi said:

Why not having crutches for easier grip...!

I can shoot without thumbrest, but better / faster with thumbrest

Your basic grip needs improvement if that's the case.

 

But it's a free country so.....

[JTran253]

14 hours ago, satoshi said:

Question for non iron sight shooter

Is your stance (grip, head position etc.) different between iron sight only and optic only?

I have toy gun glock with red dot that don't co-witness with front sight.

But if I draw gun with natural stance as iron sight only glock, I almost can't see the dot, and take time to find it.

 

Since 3gun don't have carry optic class (and I don't want to go open class) so

I still want to keep my iron sight only stance.

I think co-witness sight configuration, or probably more accurately speaking, low mounted red dot

that may co-witness with sight, helps me

Stance and handling shouldn't change, I think you're over thinking it a little. As for your original question, I know a lot of people who run sigs with the takedown lever/thumb rest/"*thumb rest [generic]*" combo. Co-witnessed irons in a competitive setting is just a waste of space imo. Don't rely on a thumb rest, maybe use one later after you've better developed your fundamentals.

Edited October 20, 2021 by JTran253
Edit

[waterboy]

No need for iron sights at all on a CO gun in my opinion 

[HesedTech]

On 10/18/2021 at 1:22 PM, Frito said:

The way I learned gripping is never press force with the supporting hand thumb, just softly land it on the frame as it may affect the muzzle.  Therefore I'm quite puzzled seeing many mod made a thumb rest even in open gun, allegedly mitigating recoil.  

Extra thumb rest for support hand is a very common thing in Open.

 

 

The goal is gun control to make a follow up shot quickly and accurately as possible. BTW it works and as always practice makes it normal.

 

Not allowed in CO, but a stock extended safety is.

 

 

I shoot CO, and at least in competition, there isn't a need for extra sights. 

Edited October 21, 2021 by HesedTech

[-JCN-]

On 10/16/2021 at 6:48 PM, SGT_Schultz said:

Thumb rests are crutches, unnecessary with a correct grip.

 

Schultzy, I know you enjoy hyperbole, but it might be helpful to be a little more open minded sometimes.

 

IMO, thumb rests aren't "necessary" but they CAN augment grip and help recoil control IF they are utilized properly.

 

Here's a video I was doing the other day trying to adjust my grip pressure for faster dot timing to trigger press on first recoil bounce.

 

First bounce wound up being 0.12s splits.

 

 

If you watch the side view in slow motion you can see the gun press into the weak thumb by virtue of the thumbrest and it effectively stops the rotation of the gun in recoil with more leverage than you would get without it.

 

So maybe soften your stance a little bit? Or not. But in this paper-GM opinion, thumb rests do help with recoil management with the above caveats.

[-JCN-]

@satoshi

 

A shadow 2 with ambi safety would fulfill your requirements for strong thumb. 
 

 

Agree with others that for a CO gun, irons are cluttery and I don’t use them in competition. 
 

I differ with @SGT_Schultz in that I do prefer them on my carry gun. 
 

There are certain dot wash out scenarios depending on your light sensor auto-adjust like if you were hiding in a dark room and the target was in a bright hallway where good ol irons would be helpful. 
 

But I use the minimum height irons I can to not compromise my window. 

[SGT_Schultz]

4 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

There are certain dot wash out scenarios depending on your light sensor auto-adjust like if you were hiding in a dark room and the target was in a bright hallway where good ol irons would be helpful.

 

I haven't found one yet and I've gamed them at all times of day and seasons of the year in my home.  Not just in light from dark with indoor illumination, but even dark to light looking out into bright sunlight.

 

I only use Trijicon RMRs for serious use because of how stellar their auto brightness feature is.  All bets are off if you're using other brands.  I can understand that reluctance from someone using holosun products.  I have one as a cheap emergency backup and its brightness auto-adjust is completely useless.

[-JCN-]

4 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I haven't found one yet and I've gamed them at all times of day and seasons of the year in my home.  Not just in light from dark with indoor illumination, but even dark to light looking out into bright sunlight.

 

I only use Trijicon RMRs for serious use because of how stellar their auto brightness feature is.  All bets are off if you're using other brands.  I can understand that reluctance from someone using holosun products.  I have one as a cheap emergency backup and its brightness auto-adjust is completely useless.

 

I completely agree with you that Holosun auto-adjust is junk.

 

RMR and Shield RMSc have the best auto-adjustment sensors out there.

 

With those, there are scenarios where dark to sunlight washes out the dot. 

Especially if the "target" is reddish or if the background or ambient sun low angle creates reflections.

 

Have you ever shot an evening match where the sun is low overhead and you get "ghost dots?" That kind of a scenario coupled with dim dot from being in lower light.

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

I know they make replacement slide stops and take down levers that are thumbrests 

[belus]

On 10/21/2021 at 7:54 AM, HesedTech said:

Extra thumb rest for support hand is a very common thing in Open.

One of these nitro fin things came with my 2011 that I picked up for Limited. It wasn't anywhere near where my left hand thumb naturally fell and to touch it I would lower my weak hand. I took it off pretty quickly.

 

Maybe the actual car-accelerator branded one with it's higher vertical surface would feel natural, but I'm already holding the gun so the sights go straight up out of the rear notch and I don't want to mess that up with some extra weird pressure.

 

I also use the RAMI flat safety on the Shadow 2 because, again, the protruding surfaces prevent me from putting my hands where I want them.

[Sigtime]

Hey if your still looking for a thumbrest that’s legal for CO mjcustoms.net has them for glocks.