DQ for this AD?

[mpmo]

Good afternoon fine people of the internets.  Had an issue I wasn't sure about come up this weekend.  Background, I'm not an RO, but happy to play one when needed.  I'm pretty new to the sport, been about 18 months.  This happened at a USPSA match.

 

I'm 2nd RO on the score pad.  Timer goes off, competitor draws and has an AD on his way to a target.  Both the Timer RO and I determined in the moment that it was farther than 10ft from himself and the RO and did not stop the competitor.  After he was done, Timer RO asks me to confirm I felt it was 10ft, and I said yes.  Competitor said it actually happened with the trigger finger of his weak hand and didn't know how that happened.  Sounds like he just got a super funky grip off the draw to freestyle.  

 

The place i wasn't sure, was that I didn't feel like he was aimed at a target when he discharged.  I mentioned that and he said he was, and there was a target 10ft in front of where he discharged.  I don't feel like 10.4.1 applies which has the part about firing at a target as the ground is not considered an unsafe direction.  

 

Just to reiterate, we did not stop the competitor nor DQ after the fact.  I think we did the right thing by my reading but just wanted to make sure.

 

Thanks!

 

Edited October 11, 2021 by mpmo

[ima45dv8]

54 minutes ago, mpmo said:

...competitor draws and has an AD on his way to a target...

Was he moving his feet toward a target, or was he stationary and his gun was moving towards the target?

[SGT_Schultz]

49 minutes ago, mpmo said:

The place i wasn't sure, was that I didn't feel like he was aimed at a target when he discharged.

 

That's one of the things I look for closely during shooter movement.

 

If the gun goes off and it isn't in a position that any reasonable person would use to aim and pointed in the general direction of actual targets................it's a DQ under 10.4.6

 

 

[mpmo]

He was stationary. 

[MikeBurgess]

I break things like this down in two different ways depending on what position I am in. 

 

As an RO, I am very willing to stop someone and issue the DQ for a AD if I believe that's what happened. This puts what happens next in the shooters hands, yes there are some arguments to be made BUT if you just touched one off not at a target and you want to argue about it your a D*%^# and I will happily pass you off to make your case to the RM if your not a D^%#^ then you will accept what you did and help tape and score.

 

As an RM, if a shooter wants to make the case that they did not AD but just missed really bad I will listen to their argument, I very likely will try to talk them into learning from the fact they just touched one off and maybe today isn't their day, failing that if the circumstances play out to where a case for it not being an AD can be made then I will order the reshoot as required, if the circumstances do not then I wont. Its all very situationally dependent. 

 

I have overruled a DQ on a shot that sounds similar to this it was on a 7yd target on the draw, hit the ground at 12' new RO and I happened to be watching, it was a  lets use this as a learning opportunity because nobody really know what to do, so we walked through all the rules together, in this case the shooter said thankyou but no thanks. 

 

 

[SGT_Schultz]

56 minutes ago, mpmo said:

He was stationary. 

 

Then he got lucky, because neither 10.4.2 nor 10.4.6 apply.

 

If the shot didn't travel over the berm he skates.

[Schutzenmeister]

I'm not going to weigh in on this particular incident ... There's just not enough information in the OP to make an informed call.

 

That said, the rules governing DQ for an AD under 10.4 (etc.) are VERY specifically worded.  The shooter's actions either fall under one (or more) of these rules or they do not.  If they do, it's a DQ ... full stop.  If they don't, it's not a DQ, at least not under anything in 10.4.

 

You don't really need to LOOK for reasons to DQ someone.  Generally speaking, if they have earned a DQ the reasons will be obvious and reasonably well defined under the rules.

[teros135]

58 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

I'm not going to weigh in on this particular incident ... There's just not enough information in the OP to make an informed call.

 

That said, the rules governing DQ for an AD under 10.4 (etc.) are VERY specifically worded.  The shooter's actions either fall under one (or more) of these rules or they do not.  If they do, it's a DQ ... full stop.  If they don't, it's not a DQ, at least not under anything in 10.4.

 

You don't really need to LOOK for reasons to DQ someone.  Generally speaking, if they have earned a DQ the reasons will be obvious and reasonably well defined under the rules.

 

Well said.  I think this covers the situation.

[barry]

Not sure what your taking a step as you draw on a target you plan to shoot on the move and getting on the trigger early and same scenario on a target you plan to shoot stationary is different. 10 ft. Is 10 ft.

[twodownzero]

Unintentional discharges happen, but often they aren't DQs. Change your shorts and onto the next stage.

[Kokeman]

5 hours ago, twodownzero said:

Unintentional discharges happen, but often they aren't DQs. Change your shorts and onto the next stage.

I had this happen last month. Shooting PCC had a reload then weak side targets. While switching hands I must have bumped the trigger. I hesitated for a second waiting for the stop command but never heard it. I finished the stage leaving one target with only 1 hit (Virginia count). After unloading and flagging  I questioned the RO and he said it impacted the berm just to the left of the target. So no DQ.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Kokeman

[Southpaw]

25 minutes ago, Kokeman said:

I had this happen last month. Shooting PCC had a reload then weak side targets. While switching hands I must have bumped the trigger. I hesitated for a second waiting for the stop command but never heard it. I finished the stage leaving one target with only 1 hit (Virginia count). After unloading and flagging  I questioned the RO and he said it impacted the berm just to the left of the target. So no DQ.

 

That one actually should have been a DQ:

 

10.4.5 A shot which occurs while transferring a firearm between hands. 

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, Kokeman said:

While switching hands I must have bumped the trigger.

 

Yep, DQ for sure

[Kokeman]

Yep, should have been.

[Hvansky]

agree with the others