Why are SS classifier HFs lower than Production?

[waktasz]

20 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

Thanks! I’m still pretty new to the sport and have a lot to learn about rules. 
 

I also just learned that movement means both feet move so a transition would be okay and shooting on the move with finger in guard would be okay if there aren’t too many steps in between shots? 

 

If you are actively engaging targets, even transitioning between them while moving you're fine to have it in there. If you can't see the next target or have a bunch of steps between targets and you aren't actively aiming at one, it should be clear of the trigger guard. 
(disclaimer: These are sort of rules of thumb, I'm sure there are exceptions so don't come back here and blame me for nothin!)

[-JCN-]

@Schutzenmeister

@Racinready300ex

@waktasz

 

Okay gents. Thanks for the input. 
 

Had to see if I could do it properly. 
 

Took a little bit of thought. I’ll keep working to ingrain it. 
 

 

[Racinready300ex]

See, piece of cake. 

 

 

[shred]

FWIW, until recently SS had to have the frontstrap of the pistol above belt height.  IDK if it made and significant change to the 100% numbers, since I'm pretty sure I never set one (although I did win an Area match and have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express), but it added a couple ticks to my draw to get the thing out of my armpit.

 

With the new holster and mag pouch rules, anyone not previously anatomically-perfect for the divisions has a bit better chance to do well now.

 

IME the pointy-ness of Prod mags helps a bit if things go sideways more than the dinky SS magwell does, but most of those boned-up loads aren't 100%-ers either...

 

FWIW IPSC is in general much more stringent about the trigger finger than many USPSA clubs.  Know a couple dudes that got DQed at international matches for doing the same thing they got away with all the time at home.

 

 

[-JCN-]

On 10/7/2021 at 10:18 AM, motosapiens said:

this has been tried a couple times in the past by national-class limited shooters, and it was a complete failure.

 

On 10/7/2021 at 12:25 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

No, Nils would not of been slower shooting Major. That's crazy talk. If Nils shoots major at Limited Nat's I'd put my money on him to win it. If he shoots minor I see him in the 95% range like last year. He's not going to win shooting minor. 

So some more data points. That may be interpreted in different ways. 
 

 

 

You may interpret it differently than I did. Nils and Mason may or may not be directly comparable. 
 

But Nils almost won Limited with minor. 
 

And while Nils and Mason ran almost identical times when they were running identical caliber…

 

Nils was faster shooting minor than Mason shooting major. So it’s not “crazy talk” to suggest that Nils might have been faster shooting minor than he would have been shooting major. It could have been a function of the types of targets at this Nationals or maybe a function of different capacities minor versus major. 
 

But I personally think that supports that uncompensated major isn’t clearly better in all situations than minor. 

[motosapiens]

8 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

 

But I personally think that supports that uncompensated major isn’t clearly better in all situations than minor. 

 

looks like the reverse to me, at least in all *normal* situations. Nils is one of the 3 greatest shooters that have ever lived, and has won Limited 4 times and SS 5 times shooting major. OTOH, he has never won Limited or SS shooting minor. 

 

it looks like in a normal big match, shooting minor is a 3-5% disadvantage, which is right along the lines of what folks have been saying.

 

Of course you could make a match that favored minor or at least equalized it, by using lots of steel, lots of zebras, and few or no tight angled or horizontal partials. Sort of the opposite of what PASA used to do to incentivize SS major.

[Racinready300ex]

7 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

 

So some more data points. That may be interpreted in different ways. 
 

 

 

You may interpret it differently than I did. Nils and Mason may or may not be directly comparable. 
 

But Nils almost won Limited with minor. 
 

And while Nils and Mason ran almost identical times when they were running identical caliber…

 

Nils was faster shooting minor than Mason shooting major. So it’s not “crazy talk” to suggest that Nils might have been faster shooting minor than he would have been shooting major. It could have been a function of the types of targets at this Nationals or maybe a function of different capacities minor versus major. 
 

But I personally think that supports that uncompensated major isn’t clearly better in all situations than minor. 

 

How much time have you spent in divisions shooting major vs shooting minor? The great thing is you're welcome to shoot minor in limited and open if you think it's the better play for your skill set. 

 

My guess, Nils having won several Limited Nat's just wants to prove he can do the unthinkable and win with a minor gun. Wouldn't that be cool? Does that mean Minor is equal? Or does that mean Nils is a monster and shot a amazing match? 

 

Nils was 10 seconds faster with better hits. Vary impressive shooting. 

[-JCN-]

32 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

How much time have you spent in divisions shooting major vs shooting minor? The great thing is you're welcome to shoot minor in limited and open if you think it's the better play for your skill set. 

 

My guess, Nils having won several Limited Nat's just wants to prove he can do the unthinkable and win with a minor gun. Wouldn't that be cool? Does that mean Minor is equal? Or does that mean Nils is a monster and shot a amazing match? 

 

Nils was 10 seconds faster with better hits. Vary impressive shooting. 

I did some testing for me and for my skill set and skill level I did not have overall benefit shooting CO major (technically open but setup with slide ride dot and 40SW) compared to CO minor. 
 

Maybe Nils was 10 seconds faster with better hits BECAUSE he was shooting minor. 

 

Compensated major is really where the benefit of major comes into play IMO. It doesn’t seem as simple as major versus minor. 

[waktasz]

He had better hits (barely) but not better points(not even close) 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

My guess, Nils having won several Limited Nat's just wants to prove he can do the unthinkable and win with a minor gun.

or perhaps he is under contract, and being paid to shoot only the Canik.

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, -JCN- said:

I did some testing for me and for my skill set and skill level I did not have overall benefit shooting CO major (technically open but setup with slide ride dot and 40SW) compared to CO minor. 
 

Maybe Nils was 10 seconds faster with better hits BECAUSE he was shooting minor. 

 

Compensated major is really where the benefit of major comes into play IMO. It doesn’t seem as simple as major versus minor. 

 

The benefit of major comes from the points. See waktasz above, even with better hits Nils was down considerably on points because every Charlie he losses double the points. He had 80 C's costing him 160 points there, Mason had 88 so he gave up half the points. Even being 10 seconds slower with less A's Mason still won the match. 

 

Put it this way, I don't think you'll see anyone who finished near the top of that match switching to minor thinking it'll be a advantage based on how Nils did.

[Racinready300ex]

18 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

or perhaps he is under contract, and being paid to shoot only the Canik.

 

That could be, I wonder why he chose to be in that situation.

[-JCN-]

7 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

The benefit of major comes from the points. See waktasz above, even with better hits Nils was down considerably on points because every Charlie he losses double the points. He had 80 C's costing him 160 points there, Mason had 88 so he gave up half the points. Even being 10 seconds slower with less A's Mason still won the match. 

 

Put it this way, I don't think you'll see anyone who finished near the top of that match switching to minor thinking it'll be a advantage based on how Nils did.

Yes, but if Nils was just a fraction of a second faster then he would have won. 
 

Win or lose, it seemed like a dead heat.

 

If Production was apples to apples and Mason / Nils were 2-3% apart I could buy that being the Major / Minor spread. 
 

Dunno if that’s conclusive. 
 

I do think it supports being faster with minor than major (uncompensated) with whether or not it benefits or hurts being course and shooter level dependents. 
 

If you just take hits and not points, why is it a stretch to say uncompensated major is slower than minor?

 

The physics bear that out. Are you slower with 150PF ammo than with 130?

 

I know I am. 

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

Yes, but if Nils was just a fraction of a second faster then he would have won. 
 

Win or lose, it seemed like a dead heat.

 

If Production was apples to apples and Mason / Nils were 2-3% apart I could buy that being the Major / Minor spread. 
 

Dunno if that’s conclusive. 
 

I do think it supports being faster with minor than major (uncompensated) with whether or not it benefits or hurts being course and shooter level dependents. 
 

If you just take hits and not points, why is it a stretch to say uncompensated major is slower than minor?

 

The physics bear that out. Are you slower with 150PF ammo than with 130?

 

I know I am. 

 

 

The only way to really know would be to ask Nils. He could of approached the two matches differently. He knows the scoring system, he'd know what he needs to do to be competitive in either division and may vary well of adjusted how he shot to be in the running. Shooting limited he really has nothing to loose, no one would expect him to win shooting minor. This could take some pressure off of him, and maybe he pushes a little harder than he normally might with a minor gun.

 

It's not the physics it's the scoring. Example give me a plate rack and a minor gun and a major gun I probably run the plates faster with the minor gun more often than I do with the major gun. That's the physics you're talking about and the targets are exactly the same so is the scoring. 

 

The problem is most of the targets we shoot at are paper and have scoring zones. When you're shooting major the acceptable scoring zone is bigger than it is with a minor gun. This allows you to push the speed more and drop less points even though you shoot more C's. 

[waktasz]

Not really. My splits are exactly the same with minor ammo and major and I don't have to spend as much time aiming for alphas when shooting Major. 

[Racinready300ex]

19 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

 

 

Let's try a hypothetical. El Prez let's say you run it in 5.25 all A's that's a HF of 11.4. But that's not super realistic you probably drop a couple Charlies so lets say you run it in 5 with 3 Charlies. You're HF is 10.8. That's a decent run, but not setting the world on fire.

 

Okay now you run it with a major gun in the same 5 seconds but this time physic's kills you and you shoot 6 C's. you're HF is still 10.8. But in reality you probably don't drop double the Charlies or if you do you're probably dropping the time too. 

 

 

[rowdyb]

6 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

this time physic's kills you

With today's guns, ammo and techniques the thing is the physics don't kill you. (one reason why i argue against major getting the scoring benefit they do)

 

Most top level guys shoot maj and min at exactly the same speed of splits and transitions. The race holster and single action trigger don't yield that big of savings so where is all the time made up? In not aiming as much, purposely accepting charlies just as @waktasz said. I'm not amazing, but even at my level there was no speed difference in the shooting or gun manipulations between my 47oz Prod gun shooting 135pf minor ammo and my 50oz Lim gun shooting 175pf ammo. My stage times were faster because of how I could shoot the point values versus any mechanical effect intrinsic to the gun or ammo.

[Racinready300ex]

3 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

With today's guns, ammo and techniques the thing is the physics don't kill you. (one reason why i argue against major getting the scoring benefit they do)

 

Most top level guys shoot maj and min at exactly the same speed of splits and transitions. The race holster and single action trigger don't yield that big of savings so where is all the time made up? In not aiming as much, purposely accepting charlies just as @waktasz said. I'm not amazing, but even at my level there was no speed difference in the shooting or gun manipulations between my 47oz Prod gun shooting 135pf minor ammo and my 50oz Lim gun shooting 175pf ammo. My stage times were faster because of how I could shoot the point values versus any mechanical effect intrinsic to the gun or ammo.

 

You're basically saying the same thing I am. I used the phrase "physics kills you" because JCN seems hung up on the major gun being harder to shoot. I tried to use a fairly extreme example of El prez to show how much sloppier your hits can with a major gun and still have the HF of a minor gun.

[-JCN-]

45 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

It's not the physics it's the scoring. Example give me a plate rack and a minor gun and a major gun I probably run the plates faster with the minor gun more often than I do with the major gun. That's the physics you're talking about and the targets are exactly the same so is the scoring. 

 

The problem is most of the targets we shoot at are paper and have scoring zones. When you're shooting major the acceptable scoring zone is bigger than it is with a minor gun. This allows you to push the speed more and drop less points even though you shoot more C's. 

 

44 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Not really. My splits are exactly the same with minor ammo and major and I don't have to spend as much time aiming for alphas when shooting Major. 

 

35 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Let's try a hypothetical. El Prez let's say you run it in 5.25 all A's that's a HF of 11.4. But that's not super realistic you probably drop a couple Charlies so lets say you run it in 5 with 3 Charlies. You're HF is 10.8. That's a decent run, but not setting the world on fire.

 

Okay now you run it with a major gun in the same 5 seconds but this time physic's kills you and you shoot 6 C's. you're HF is still 10.8. But in reality you probably don't drop double the Charlies or if you do you're probably dropping the time too. 

 

24 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

With today's guns, ammo and techniques the thing is the physics don't kill you. (one reason why i argue against major getting the scoring benefit they do)

 

Most top level guys shoot maj and min at exactly the same speed of splits and transitions. The race holster and single action trigger don't yield that big of savings so where is all the time made up? In not aiming as much, purposely accepting charlies just as @waktasz said. I'm not amazing, but even at my level there was no speed difference in the shooting or gun manipulations between my 47oz Prod gun shooting 135pf minor ammo and my 50oz Lim gun shooting 175pf ammo. My stage times were faster because of how I could shoot the point values versus any mechanical effect intrinsic to the gun or ammo.

 

Consider the possibility that empiric data from M level shooting may represent an advantage that may not exist at top level shooting. Or maybe it does.

 

The examples above of major scoring "allowing more charlies" so that people can go faster.... that's not what it seems like at the top tier.

 

Nils and Mason had very similar alpha / charlie counts (especially when you factor deltas). So it doesn't look like they shot any differently because you just really can't accept too many charlies at that level anyway.

 

So it winds up being like a theoretical plate rack. Limited by vision. It takes me a few whiffs longer to settle sights on uncompensated major.

 

Going back to Limited 10 versus Production nats also removes some of the magazine capacity difference in speed that could have been contributing to Lim major versus minor.

 

If you take Christian in Open versus JJ in Open: 2.5% different.

If you take Christian in Lim10 major versus JJ in Production minor: 2.1% different.

 

So yeah, yeah, yadda yadda. But at the very top levels I'm just not seeing that it's for sure that uncompensated major gets 2-3% across the board.

 

For M class-ish shooting where people aim differently or change their pace based on other things, sure maybe 3-5%. For B class shooters with lots of Charlies they might get 5-7%.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by -JCN-

[-JCN-]

16 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You're basically saying the same thing I am. I used the phrase "physics kills you" because JCN seems hung up on the major gun being harder to shoot. I tried to use a fairly extreme example of El prez to show how much sloppier your hits can with a major gun and still have the HF of a minor gun.

 

I'm not saying it's "harder" to shoot. I'm saying the extra recoil takes longer to settle.

 

 

At the M level, the math is different than at the Hundo level.

 

You just can't be sloppy at all at a Hundo level.

 

Edited October 26, 2021 by -JCN-

[waktasz]

Now I don't know what point you are actually making. That major is harder to shoot so people will do worse even though they have a scoring advantage? 
At the National level these dudes are not losing anything shooting major because their technique is on point, so you just flat out give up points in exchange for nothing by shooting minor. Looking at Nils the last two years is a statistical anomaly with a sample size of one. You can't draw any conclusions from that other than that he crushed it both times. 
Or maybe you can. When Nils was shooting a 2011 in Limited at nats, he won.  

[rowdyb]

3 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Now I don't know what point you are actually making. That major is harder to shoot so people will do worse even though they have a scoring advantage? 
At the National level these dudes are not losing anything shooting major because their technique is on point, so you just flat out give up points in exchange for nothing by shooting minor. Looking at Nils the last two years is a statistical anomaly with a sample size of one. You can't draw any conclusions from that other than that he crushed it both times. 
Or maybe you can. When Nils was shooting a 2011 in Limited at nats, he won.  

And this is why we're also friends in real life. And motorcycles.

[Racinready300ex]

9 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

 

So yeah, yeah, yadda yadda. But at the very top levels I'm just not seeing that it's for sure that uncompensated major gets 2-3% across the board.

 

For M class-ish shooting where people aim differently or change their pace based on other things, sure maybe 3-5%. For B class shooters with lots of Charlies they might get 5-7%.

 

 

I've not heard Mason on Nils talk about their approach to shooting major vs minor to know what they do.

 

I have heard Ben talk about how with major he's basically doing what we're saying but his result is still more Alpha's than your average joe. 

[RileyBowman]

4 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Now I don't know what point you are actually making. That major is harder to shoot so people will do worse even though they have a scoring advantage? 
At the National level these dudes are not losing anything shooting major because their technique is on point, so you just flat out give up points in exchange for nothing by shooting minor. Looking at Nils the last two years is a statistical anomaly with a sample size of one. You can't draw any conclusions from that other than that he crushed it both times. 
Or maybe you can. When Nils was shooting a 2011 in Limited at nats, he won.  

And he would still be winning had he been shooting something in major PF. 

But that Canik sponsorship sure is nice!  It's only a matter of time before they release a .40 Canik pistol that's geared more towards that division. Frankly, I was surprised that he didn't somehow run one this year.

[-JCN-]

2 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Now I don't know what point you are actually making. That major is harder to shoot so people will do worse even though they have a scoring advantage? 
At the National level these dudes are not losing anything shooting major because their technique is on point, so you just flat out give up points in exchange for nothing by shooting minor. Looking at Nils the last two years is a statistical anomaly with a sample size of one. You can't draw any conclusions from that other than that he crushed it both times. 
Or maybe you can. When Nils was shooting a 2011 in Limited at nats, he won.  

 

It's kind of hard to follow through the thread so I'll summarize.

1. My point: UNCOMPENSATED major takes longer to settle so at the extreme hoser end of stage design, minor might have a speed benefit.

 

Counterpoint made in the the thread: UNCOMPENSATED major and minor are identical in shooting mechanics so no.

 

 

2. My point: Depending on skill level, major scoring "aiming speed" MAY not have a net timing advantage.

 

Counterpoint in thread: Aiming speed benefit of major scoring outweighs minor mechanics advantage.

 

 

3. My point: Scoring trade off might be course / stage / shooter dependent. Christian L10 versus JJ production may be supporting this. If Christian L10 crushed JJ production by 7% then sure. But at max speed Christian is still accurate so he can't go any faster to get further points benefit.

 

Counterpoint in thread: There's always a 3-5% plus scoring advantage across the board for shooting major over minor because (insert personal anecdote here).

 

 

 

Compensated major is of course different. That's ridiculously easier to split down to 12s. I couldn't do that on demand with my CO gun.

 

Today working on some things with grip pressure at the range: