Why are SS classifier HFs lower than Production?

[-JCN-]

I must be living under a rock but I didn’t realize there’s a lot of 10 Round 9mm Single Stack. 
 

So basically Production but with magwells and sweet SA triggers. 
 

I was surprised to see that for the same HFs the SS classification got a 2-5% bump. 
 

Can anyone explain? SS from a pure equipment standpoint should be faster, right?

[BritinUSA]

I may be wrong; I think the HHF’s foe the latest batch of classifier were based on the average of the top ten runs from Nationals, With fewer top competitors shooting in SS division this would have the effect of lowering the scores that were used for the calculation. 
 

If there were ten top-ranked competitors in that division at Nationals then the HHF’s would have been higher,

 

If USPSA did indeed use the top ten to create an average then it flies in the face of normalcy for determining HHF’s, as for any other stage it is based only on the highest value achieved 

 

 

[-JCN-]

1 minute ago, BritinUSA said:

I may be wrong; I think the HHF’s foe the latest batch of classifier were based on the average of the top ten runs from Nationals, With fewer top competitors shooting in SS division this would have the effect of lowering the scores that were used for the calculation. 
 

If there were ten top-ranked competitors in that division at Nationals then the HHF’s would have been higher,

 

If USPSA did indeed use the top ten to create an average then it flies in the face of normalcy for determining HHF’s, as for any other stage it is based only on the highest value achieved 

 

 

I’m talking about even old standards like Can You Count and El Prez. 
 

Mechanically, assuming the same skill shooter… you’d be able to do as well or better with a competition 9mm - 10 round 1911s than a Production gun, right?

[motosapiens]

14 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

I’m talking about even old standards like Can You Count and El Prez. 
 

Mechanically, assuming the same skill shooter… you’d be able to do as well or better with a competition 9mm - 10 round 1911s than a Production gun, right?

 

i haven't looked in the last year or so, but my experience generally was that production hhf's were significantly lower than SS, because major scoring. 

 

You may recall tho that Mike Foley wreaked havoc on the hhf's a couple years ago, but that mostly made it near impossible to move up in limited. I don't recall SS being affected to the same degree. Perhaps production got screwed up as well. the problem is that lots of fast serious people shoot prod and lim, and they go hero/zero on classifiers, which results in some ridiculous and unrepeatable scores. HHF's got inflated because they were based on hero/zero shooters instead of national championship runs.

[-JCN-]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

i haven't looked in the last year or so, but my experience generally was that production hhf's were significantly lower than SS, because major scoring. 

 

You may recall tho that Mike Foley wreaked havoc on the hhf's a couple years ago, but that mostly made it near impossible to move up in limited. I don't recall SS being affected to the same degree. Perhaps production got screwed up as well. the problem is that lots of fast serious people shoot prod and lim, and they go hero/zero on classifiers, which results in some ridiculous and unrepeatable scores. HHF's got inflated because they were based on hero/zero shooters instead of national championship runs.

I think it’s probably not correct to say major scoring is a clear benefit when on an uncompensated gun. 
 

It seems that Lim is on par or worse

off than CO at matches but of course not an apples to apples comparison. 
 

On the classifiers I looked at, SS was softer than Prod. 

[BritinUSA]

23 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

HHF's got inflated because they were based on hero/zero shooters instead of national championship runs.

Thread drift: I think this is one of the core problems with the classification system. It tries to compare a stage-run from Nationals (with a championship on the line), with a score shot at a L1 match with zero consequences if the shooter makes a complete mess of it.
 

I think it’s a broken system that needs to be completely changed/reset.

[-JCN-]

3 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Thread drift: I think this is one of the core problems with the classification system. It tries to compare a stage-run from Nationals (with a championship on the line), with a score shot at a L1 match with zero consequences if the shooter makes a complete mess of it.
 

I think it’s a broken system that needs to be completely changed/reset.

Yeah, I don’t think anyone else got within 5% of Max in CO last year. So does that mean nobody else is a GM?

 

It’s built into the system. A Hundo is what the best of the best can do 9 out of 10 times and what paper GMs can do 1 out of 20. 
 

How do you tell the best of the best from the rest? Their performance over 20 stages at Nationals. 

[BritinUSA]

In my opinion;

 

Nationals is the only true test in this country. Anyone achieving 95% or higher should earn a GM that is in effect until the next year’s Nationals.

 

The highest level that should be achieved with classifiers is Master.
 

USPSA should introduce 3-4 new classifiers each year at Nationals and the single High Hit Factor from each division should be set in stone for each classifier.

 

If that HHF is surpassed at any other match then the shooter gets capped at 100%, but the HHF does not change as the pressure of Nationals is not present at an L1 match.
 

The classifiers are rolled-off after 4-5 years.

 

Classifications should go down as well as up, the current system does not allow for grades to go down (unless appealed) and that is crazy. 
 

I doubt the system will change, it would anger a great many people who like to think they are better shooters than they really are.

 

The data is being manipulated too much in the current system, as such I think the current measurements are essentially worthless. 

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, -JCN- said:

I think it’s probably not correct to say major scoring is a clear benefit when on an uncompensated gun. 

 

I think for a B or C shooter, major may not be that big a benefit, but for a more skilled shooter it is undeniably a significant advantage. You can see this by simply perusing the scores at limited or ss nationals.

 

The difference is even bigger for classifiers, where capacity is almost never a concern. I was chugging along around 80% in SS when shooting minor. Within a few weeks of switching to major I made M.

[-JCN-]

20 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I think for a B or C shooter, major may not be that big a benefit, but for a more skilled shooter it is undeniably a significant advantage. You can see this by simply perusing the scores at limited or ss nationals.

 

The difference is even bigger for classifiers, where capacity is almost never a concern. I was chugging along around 80% in SS when shooting minor. Within a few weeks of switching to major I made M.

I don’t think it’s as undeniable as your anecdotal situation would suggest. 
 

Perusing scores for lim major versus minor at big events has a selection bias. 
 

I would even venture that through 85% major might make more difference, but getting better than that… minor might come out on top when you’re talking about skill that can capitalize on the less recoil with more speed and accuracy. 
 

I experimented shooting uncompensated major Open with gamer 40SW and I was worse off HF wise than I was with minor CO 9mm in an apples to apples comparison. This was after I hit GM in CO and was experimenting. 
 

Because when you’re taking advantage of 0.17-20 splits and transitions and hitting alphas anyway, major slows you down more and doesn’t give you enough points advantage to offset the slower splits and transitions. 

Edited October 7, 2021 by -JCN-

[-JCN-]

@motosapiens

 

Also if SS has easier HHF than Production…

 

But major is really a scoring advantage on classifiers where capacity (usually) doesn’t matter, then is SS major 10% easier than CO / Production?

 

I think for people who shoot slow AND lots of Charlies, maybe. Maybe it’s bimodal. 
 

But I’d rather shoot minor on an SS classifier and have a GM run that would have been a 92% production run. 
 

I can test it easily though. I have 9 and 40 barrels for a limited TSO. 

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

@motosapiens

 

Also if SS has easier HHF than Production…

 

But major is really a scoring advantage on classifiers where capacity (usually) doesn’t matter, then is SS major 10% easier than CO / Production?

 

 

the hhf's aren't based on what is easier, but on what scores people have shot. It's pretty clear that there is a deeper field of talent shooting production classifiers at local matches (where hero/zero is more common) on a regular basis. Most of the top SS shooters only shoot SS for a few big matches a year.

[motosapiens]

34 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

I would even venture that through 85% major might make more difference, but getting better than that… minor might come out on top when you’re talking about skill that can capitalize on the less recoil with more speed and accuracy. 

this has been tried a couple times in the past by national-class limited shooters, and it was a complete failure. Recoil is not as big a thing as noobs think. I know I shoot about the same speed and accuracy, major or minor, on most types of target. The main exceptions are total hoser targets like can you count or roscoe rattle.

[-JCN-]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

the hhf's aren't based on what is easier, but on what scores people have shot. It's pretty clear that there is a deeper field of talent shooting production classifiers at local matches (where hero/zero is more common) on a regular basis. Most of the top SS shooters only shoot SS for a few big matches a year.

I don’t know that we know what they’re actually based on because CO and production have same HHFs so in that case they’re not linked to performance in their respective divisions. 
 

I’m curious now and if SS minor is easier than Production. And SS major is easier than SS minor… how would paper GM CO skills translate to SS major versus minor…

[-JCN-]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

this has been tried a couple times in the past by national-class limited shooters, and it was a complete failure. Recoil is not as big a thing as noobs think. I know I shoot about the same speed and accuracy, major or minor, on most types of target. The main exceptions are total hoser targets like can you count or roscoe rattle.

On field course that aren’t hoser, I can totally see that. Would love to see lim 10 versus Production nationals compared on the same COFs. 
 

On hoser classifiers and field courses I know it matters to me. 

[-JCN-]

@motosapiens

 

Does this change your mind re major / minor benefit?

 

Seems like a wash within noise of skill. 
 

Locap Nats. 
 

 

 

[ChuckS]

6 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

--- snip --- Would love to see lim 10 versus Production nationals compared on the same COFs. --- snip ---

Download the Practiscore Competitor App and you can compare anything you want.

[Racinready300ex]

I haven't shot SS in a few years, at the time I noticed many of the classifiers had the same HHF as Limited. I think they just copied the HF back then figuring 1911 with Major should be similar. Stages with more than 8 rounds where difficult. 

 

Maj/min probably depends on where you are as a shooter. Stage design has a effect on it too. I found I can shoot just as fast or in many cases faster with a Major gun than a minor gun. I might drop more Charlies but you loose half as many points with major, so I ended up being faster with a higher % or the points even though the Charlie count was up some. This equals a higher HF.

 

I shot SS for a season, first half Major second half minor. Looking back at the end of the year I noticed a vary consistent A class open shooter who I'd finish just ahead of shooting major I typically ended up just behind shooting minor. Certainly a lot of variable to that but it seemed to cost me about 5% shooting a minor.

[Racinready300ex]

42 minutes ago, -JCN- said:

@motosapiens

 

Does this change your mind re major / minor benefit?

 

Seems like a wash within noise of skill. 
 

Locap Nats. 
 

 

Nils shot faster and had more A's yet still lost, so I think it solidifies the major advantage. 

 

If you edit Sailer to minor he finishes 4th, dropping 3.5%. If you move Nils to L10 and give him major he moves from 2% behind to 2% ahead. Now they'd likely change their tactics. Nils would probably pick up the pace and Sailer would need to find more A's with out loosing any time, since Nils was already faster than him. But the results seem on par with the advantage major seems to have. 

[MikeBurgess]

14 hours ago, -JCN- said:

Mechanically, assuming the same skill shooter… you’d be able to do as well or better with a competition 9mm - 10 round 1911s than a Production gun, right?

you will find that in the end this is not a true statement. 

 

For a skilled shooters the scoring difference between a $500 plastic gun and a $4000 custom built 1911 is approximately zero. The biggest difference performance wise is the super cool 1911 may make you happy and that counts for something, and may encourage you to practice more. As you show above there was 2.1% difference between 2 of the best shooters out there one shooting major with a $5000 2011 shooting major and one with a $500 Canik shooting minor, 40 points difference leads me to belive that the scoring difference was infinitely larger than the performance attainable with the chosen platform.

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, -JCN- said:

I’m curious now and if SS minor is easier than Production. And SS major is easier than SS minor… how would paper GM CO skills translate to SS major versus minor…

My General read on the classification system currently is it all depends. Of you club is running lots of the newer classifiers then the HHF are still much lower than the old 99 series in general. On top of that you will notice many of the classifiers have whacky HHF for some divisions because bad or too little data was used when they were set. 

in my experience the divisions stack up something like this for easy of achievement for any given classification.

 

Revo is the easiest (ask me how I know) 

CO Too many are based on production scores

PCC the fixed time standards are easy to hundo the rest have started to become realistic 

SS depending on the classifier

Prod, Lim, L10 these seem reasonably equally hard

Open, the crazy fast kids love to shoot hero runs and mess it up for the rest of us.

 

[-JCN-]

13 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Nils shot faster and had more A's yet still lost, so I think it solidifies the major advantage. 

 

If you edit Sailer to minor he finishes 4th, dropping 3.5%. If you move Nils to L10 and give him major he moves from 2% behind to 2% ahead. Now they'd likely change their tactics. Nils would probably pick up the pace and Sailer would need to find more A's with out loosing any time, since Nils was already faster than him. But the results seem on par with the advantage major seems to have. 

That’s a straw man, though. Speed and scoring judgement are related. Can’t just change major to minor. 
 

If any of the top Production guys shot SS minor would they have done worse? Probably not. Really doesn’t look like there’s no clear advantage to major if barring Sailer production was really up there. 

[-JCN-]

14 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

you will find that in the end this is not a true statement. 

 

For a skilled shooters the scoring difference between a $500 plastic gun and a $4000 custom built 1911 is approximately zero. The biggest difference performance wise is the super cool 1911 may make you happy and that counts for something, and may encourage you to practice more. As you show above there was 2.1% difference between 2 of the best shooters out there one shooting major with a $5000 2011 shooting major and one with a $500 Canik shooting minor, 40 points difference leads me to belive that the scoring difference was infinitely larger than the performance attainable with the chosen platform.

 

 

I think that’s a straw man too, because to make that conclusion you’d have to put the fancy gun in Nils hands to say that. Does he run Canik because gun doesn’t matter or does he run it because that’s tied to his sponsorship and food on the table is as important or more important than winning? I don’t know the answer to that. I don’t think anyone but Nils knows that. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, -JCN- said:

On field course that aren’t hoser, I can totally see that. Would love to see lim 10 versus Production nationals compared on the same COFs. 

conveniently enough, that data is available from last nationals. You'll have to make your own estimation of whether nils and jj are the same caliber of shooter as Christian. To my eye, it looks like a deeper and more experienced field in production.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, -JCN- said:

@motosapiens

 

Does this change your mind re major / minor benefit?

 

Seems like a wash within noise of skill. 
 

Locap Nats. 

i shot that match. I noticed that the first 18 or so SS shooters all chose major. I suspect there is a good reason for that.