Grip Strength...

[Intheshaw1]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Not arguing, but I have seen a lot of guidance suggesting that you work on trigger control by trying to get the mechanics right while pulling the trigger rather than outmuscling the gun. 

It's not so much outmuscling the gun as increasing your overall grip strength to reduce the need to actively crush it. Cha Lee had a great series of posts about this a few months back.

 

Essentially let's say the gun requires 100 lbs of grip force to reliably control. If your max grip strength is 120 lbs of force you really have to crush your grip to achieve 100 lbs of grip force, or 90% of total grip strength, which can impact your trigger pull. Whereas if your max is 180 lbs, you are only using 60% and can have a more relaxed grip but still apply the same amount of pressure.

 

These are obviously made up numbers but the concept is what matters. Improving your overall grip strength is likely only going to help and almost never hurt your shooting. And by increasing your grip strength you can relax your grip and improve trigger control with the relaxed grip.

 

This also assumes all other things are equal and that you already have the fundamentals of grip down. And you can get a grip trainer and throw it in your car to use during your drive to work and you're not giving up any of your normal training time.

 

Or you can lift weights as @gargoil66said as it helps grip faster and improves overall health and athletic ability.

[Hvansky]

Just make sure you don’t overdue it 

[gargoil66]

On 10/13/2021 at 10:09 AM, Racinready300ex said:

 

Certainly the mental game is important, much more important than your strength or speed. But if working it helps you feel better about your chances that's great go after it. But know and believing you already have the grip strength you need can have the same effect. Freeing you up to work on things that matter. 

RR:

 

If a guy doesn't think he has a problem, he won't even be thinking about it.  However, believing one is physically powerful does not make him so.  I have seen a lot of guys make the mistake of thinking that they were the heat without having done the work to make them the heat.  They get humiliated when faced with a person of average skills and a decent amount of attention. 

 

You won't find a coach or performance enhancement / sports psychologist who won't say up front that mental skills only enhance performance.  They don't  make up for lacking in training or basic skills development and perfection.

 

So, it can be argued that the mental game is important but not without a correspondingly high level of skills development. 

 

Another thing I have noted is that guys and gals do not seem to practice their mental skills when they practice.  The mental skills are only as good as they too are trained.  

 

GG

[Racinready300ex]

1 minute ago, gargoil66 said:

RR:

 

If a guy doesn't think he has a problem, he won't even be thinking about it.  However, believing one is physically powerful does not make him so.  I have seen a lot of guys make the mistake of thinking that they were the heat without having done the work to make them the heat.  They get humiliated when faced with a person of average skills and a decent amount of attention. 

 

You won't find a coach or performance enhancement / sports psychologist who won't say up front that mental skills only enhance performance.  They don't  make up for lacking in training or basic skills development and perfection.

 

So, it can be argued that the mental game is important but not without a correspondingly high level of skills development. 

 

Another thing I have noted is that guys and gals do not seem to practice their mental skills when they practice.  The mental skills are only as good as they too are trained.  

 

GG

 

I think you're missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying believing you are strong is what makes you strong enough. I'm saying the average person in our sport already has the strength required to control the gun they're just not using what they have correctly. So they need to understand this, and really believe it and look at their technique instead. 

 

If someone is blaming their poor control on grip strength then they must think they are good at shooting so all that's left is strength they're missing. I find most people think they have the fundamentals down, when really they don't.  

 

It kind of goes to your point about the mental game can't make up for lack of training. I completely agree. But I also training the wrong thing isn't going to help you either. 

 

 

 

[lgh]

23 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

Not arguing, but I have seen a lot of guidance suggesting that you work on trigger control by trying to get the mechanics right while pulling the trigger rather than outmuscling the gun. 

Ditto. I like to have as much grip strength as I can. But try making one-handed shots if you don't have trigger control.

[gargoil66]

4 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think you're missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying believing you are strong is what makes you strong enough. I'm saying the average person in our sport already has the strength required to control the gun they're just not using what they have correctly. So they need to understand this, and really believe it and look at their technique instead. 

 

If someone is blaming their poor control on grip strength then they must think they are good at shooting so all that's left is strength they're missing. I find most people think they have the fundamentals down, when really they don't.  

 

It kind of goes to your point about the mental game can't make up for lack of training. I completely agree. But I also training the wrong thing isn't going to help you either. 

 

 

 

 

RR.

 

I sure did miss what you were saying.  I got it now. 

 

Agree totally for novice shooters who don't have the basic skills.  Probably half and half for guys who are B or A class.  Probably not as much for Master and GM.   Why do I think this way?  Because the more accomplished a guy gets, the more they are attuned to themselves and if they identify something they thinks needs work, they are probably right.

 

So yes, I understand what you are saying, agree with it, and appreciate you taking the time to clarify!  

 

GG66

 

 

 

 

[NotAnAddict]

On 10/15/2021 at 6:46 AM, Racinready300ex said:

 

I think you're missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying believing you are strong is what makes you strong enough. I'm saying the average person in our sport already has the strength required to control the gun they're just not using what they have correctly. So they need to understand this, and really believe it and look at their technique instead. 

 

If someone is blaming their poor control on grip strength then they must think they are good at shooting so all that's left is strength they're missing. I find most people think they have the fundamentals down, when really they don't.  

 

It kind of goes to your point about the mental game can't make up for lack of training. I completely agree. But I also training the wrong thing isn't going to help you either. 

 

 

 

Thank you for all the responses and helping a noobie learn some stuff. As with anything, it sounds like learning and executing the fundamentals is paramount to other secondary attributes.

[MikeyScuba]

I add more grip work in the off season.  When I’m shooting 2-3x week with daily dry fire I’m going to get wicked tendonitis if I add grip work.  To note I train weights 3x week all the time.

ironmind.com has neat tools.

 

I have the CoC grippers but never use them.

[Halen]

On 11/17/2021 at 7:19 PM, MikeyScuba said:

I add more grip work in the off season.  When I’m shooting 2-3x week with daily dry fire I’m going to get wicked tendonitis if I add grip work.  To note I train weights 3x week all the time.

ironmind.com has neat tools.

 

I have the CoC grippers but never use them.

 

I'm in the process of recovering from a fractured wrist and doing something similar. Appreciate the recommendation for ironmind.com.

[RVRSE]

On 9/25/2021 at 5:01 PM, NotAnAddict said:

 

I imagine I need stronger hands and better grip techniques to control recoil more effectively. Thank you for your input.

if you want to increase grip strength you can start dead lifting.   2011 grips come in so many different textures and sizes that its largely personal preference so I wouldn't get caught up in the atlas marketing thinking that certain grip strengths are required for certain grips.  Try out a lot and find what works for you.

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, RVRSE said:

I wouldn't get caught up in the atlas marketing thinking that certain grip strengths are required for certain grips

 

Can you point me to this claim made by Atlas?  I have never seen it this claim made at all by Atlas.  They have claimed that different models of their guns are designed to return to zero with varying degrees of grip strength.  I believe this claim as I know individuals that have tested this and found it to be true.

 

Atlas recommends you purchase a certain model based on your grip strength.  The grip its self makes zero difference.  They offer differing grip panels to tweak the amount of material of the grip your hands can come into contact with. 

 

You can also tweak the return to zero with recoil springs, for your particular grip strength once you have decided on a model.

[RVRSE]

14 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

They have claimed that different models of their guns are designed to return to zero with varying degrees of grip strength.  I believe this claim as I know individuals that have tested this and found it to be true.

 

thats the point that i'm talking about.

 

The point that i'm trying to make is that different people have different hands and what works for them might not work for others and to not worry so much that when Adam states in a video "this grip is going to work for medium grips". I personally believe that people should just try different grips to see what personally works for them

 

There isn't an exact science to "return to zero" outside of trial and error of a exponential combinations of springs, slide weights, loads, and every other element of firearm design.  Return to zero is something that is going to vary a great degree from person to person, gun to gun, load recipe to load recipe. I just dont put too much weight to it consider how many variables there are.

Edited January 7, 2022 by RVRSE

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, RVRSE said:

I personally believe that people should just try different grips to see what personally works for them

 

You are completely missing the point.  It's not based on the different grip.  It is based on the model of the gun.  

 

Yes there is not an exact science for making one gun for the masses because everyone has varying grip strength, Atlas makes a recommendation to buy certain model of gun based on what you believe your grip strength is.  Then the end user tweaks the gun with varying PF of their ammo and/or recoil spring to get their gun to return to zero.

 

If I contacted Adam I would tell him I have above average grip strength but not monster grip strength and I am looking for a limited gun.  He would steer me towards the Nemesis and not the Titan.  If I had monster grip strength the Artemis or the Titan would be more fitting for my claimed grip strength.  The I would tweak the return to zero by testing varying ammo PF and recoil springs. 

 

It has nothing to do with what Grip is on the gun.  

 

7 minutes ago, RVRSE said:

"this grip is going to work for medium grips"

 

Please show me the video where he says this.

[Racinready300ex]

Adams "perfect zero" thing is kinda silly marketing IMO. Even with a weak grip you can over return the most perfectly sprung fancy gun.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Adam builds a nice guns that shoot vary well and run great. If I was in the market for a 2011 I'd probably pick one up.

[Boomstick303]

10 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

Adams "perfect zero" thing is kinda silly marketing IMO

 

Have you shot an Atlas?

 

While I do not disagree its possible to over return any gun, that's not what this discussion is about.

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Have you shot an Atlas?

 

While I do not disagree its possible to over return any gun, that's not what this discussion is about.

 

 

Yes, I've shot a few. I think he builds a vary nice gun. But the perfect zero thing is marketing. It's good marketing clearly, basically saying buy our gun and you'll shoot better. Who doesn't want a gun that does the work for you?

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, Racinready300ex said:

Yes, I've shot a few. I think he builds a vary nice gun.

 

I can respect that.  The return to zero while is a marketing thing, for me its true.  To me, so much so I was blown away.  I have shot a Nemesis and recently purchased an Athena.  They both return to zero and its absolutely amazing.    

 

There is a caveat to this in that you can out race the return to zero with a crap grip.  Meaning pulling the trigger as fast as you can with a crap grip will not return the gun to zero.

 

One thing I have noted in shooting my Athena in Open minor versus CO is that I shoot way less penalties with the Athena.  I am not sure if this is a result of the better 2011 trigger or the gun, or a combination of both.  It would be interesting to test with another 2011 from another builder if I had access to one.

 

My point is I wanted to make sure others that happen upon to the post are not mis-understanding what Atlas is claiming.  Its not based on the grip but rather the model.  

 

 

[RVRSE]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

You are completely missing the point.  It's not based on the different grip.  It is based on the model of the gun.  

 

Yes there is not an exact science for making one gun for the masses because everyone has varying grip strength, Atlas makes a recommendation to buy certain model of gun based on what you believe your grip strength is.  Then the end user tweaks the gun with varying PF of their ammo and/or recoil spring to get their gun to return to zero.

 

If I contacted Adam I would tell him I have above average grip strength but not monster grip strength and I am looking for a limited gun.  He would steer me towards the Nemesis and not the Titan.  If I had monster grip strength the Artemis or the Titan would be more fitting for my claimed grip strength.  The I would tweak the return to zero by testing varying ammo PF and recoil springs. 

 

It has nothing to do with what Grip is on the gun.  

 

 

Please show me the video where he says this.

I didn't miss the point, we're talking past each other here.  I honestly don't know why you're getting so caught up in defending atlas when all I recommended was for people to try different grips for themselves and see what works. You can get circular reasoning with "its not based on the grip its based on the gun" whats the gun based on? peoples grips. What are the grips based on? they're based on the guns...ad nauseam.

Edited January 7, 2022 by RVRSE

[Boomstick303]

9 minutes ago, RVRSE said:

...ad nauseam.

 

 

exactly. 

 

I am not defending Atlas, what I am trying to understand is where Adam said "you purchase said grip if you medium grip strength".  That is not what he is talking about. 

 

Did you ever supply that video, or claim made by Adam?  NO, because you have no idea what you are talking about. 

[Racinready300ex]

43 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I can respect that.  The return to zero while is a marketing thing, for me its true.  To me, so much so I was blown away.  I have shot a Nemesis and recently purchased an Athena.  They both return to zero and its absolutely amazing.    

 

There is a caveat to this in that you can out race the return to zero with a crap grip.  Meaning pulling the trigger as fast as you can with a crap grip will not return the gun to zero.

 

One thing I have noted in shooting my Athena in Open minor versus CO is that I shoot way less penalties with the Athena.  I am not sure if this is a result of the better 2011 trigger or the gun, or a combination of both.  It would be interesting to test with another 2011 from another builder if I had access to one.

 

My point is I wanted to make sure others that happen upon to the post are not mis-understanding what Atlas is claiming.  Its not based on the grip but rather the model.  

 

 

 

The part about the crap grip will still give crap hits is what I'm getting at. The gun can't return itself, it take some amount of technique to return the gun for follow up shots. Certainly there are lots of things you can do to change how a gun feels, and personal preference even plays a part. But, there really isn't anything revolutionary going on. 

 

Something you might find interesting. Some buddies of mine just started reloading. They're primarily IDPA CO shooters. They're going crazy right now testing powders and bullets etc. The one observation they made I thought was interesting was shooting the same load out of a 43 oz 1911 IDPA CO gun and in a 50 oz Shadow 2 for USPSA CO. They both said the 1911 felt so much softer they couldn't believe it was making PF. 

 

I certainly think a well tuned 2011 is a easier gun to shoot than anything in CO. 

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

The gun can't return itself,

 

It does though.  If you shoot like .24 splits with a crap grip the gun returns to zero.  Once you start speeding those splits and dropping them below .2 then the second shot is high with the same grip, i.e. it is not returning to zero.  I am sure these splits probably very from person to person and to somewhat could possibly be replicated on other guns.  Trust me I get grip is super important when shooting at speed but I think Atlas takes a lot of work by the end user out of the equation.  At least it seems that way to me.

 

What I believe Atlas has tried to do and in my opinion done a great job at is get you a gun that will perform well for a given grip strength.  They had adjusted the gun in the macro for a given grip strength.  Then the end user adjusts that macro adjustment with micro adjustment they make by adjusting PF and recoil springs to make the best shooting pistol for that end user.   It might be marketing to some, but for me I have seen and felt it first hand, so its easy to believe.  

 

There are other gun makers that are trying to do the same thing with their builds, but discuss this with each shooter independently to get them the best gun for that particular shooter.  How long do those builds typically take?  1 year, 1.5 years, 2 years?  Atlas is trying to do this on more of a mass production type of platform, (if you can call three moths for a build mass production) and accomplished this well.  

 

Look I understand that a ton of stuff goes into what creates good groups.  Especially when shooting at speed. I am just trying to point out what Atlas has done with their product.   Also tying to dispel things that never came out of Atlas.

[Boomstick303]

16 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

The one observation they made I thought was interesting was shooting the same load out of a 43 oz 1911 IDPA CO gun and in a 50 oz Shadow 2 for USPSA CO. They both said the 1911 felt so much softer they couldn't believe it was making PF.

 

Have they weighed the slides and compared those weights.  How much of that 7 oz is in the slide?

 

They use 1911 in CO for IDPA?

Edited January 7, 2022 by Boomstick303

[RVRSE]

17 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

exactly. 

 

I am not defending Atlas, what I am trying to understand is where Adam said "you purchase said grip if you medium grip strength".  That is not what he is talking about. 

 

Did you ever supply that video, or claim made by Adam?  NO, because you have no idea what you are talking about. 

chill man, i stated people shouldn't get caught up in the marketing and think that certain grip strengths will work for exclusively for whatever gun or grip; i was making a general point about all the varieties of 2011 grip modules and builds not a point exclusively about agw products.  This is a point that you admit to when you stated that someone will have to tune their gun depending on the their needs when discussing "return to zero".   If an agw video states that a certain grip textures will work better for certain grip strengths i caution people against this because its personal preference.  AGW videos are marketing and promotional material and they function as that primarily.

 

im not going to continue discussing this with someone who believes that i have "no idea" what im talking about because its only going to be from a position of bad faith further on.

[Racinready300ex]

10 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Have they weighed the slides and compared those weights.  How much of that 7 oz is in the slide?

 

They use 1911 in CO for IDPA?

 

One of them does. I'd guess the CZ has a lighter slide. but I'm not sure who CZ they were shooting either. At least on of them runs a lightened slide on his CZ. Most of the weight in the Shadow 2 in in the frame. 

 

My guess would be hammer spring could have alot to do with it. 10lbs in the CZ vs 19-20 probably in the 1911. 

[Boomstick303]

5 hours ago, RVRSE said:

If an agw video states that a certain grip textures will work better for certain grip strengths i caution people against this because its personal preference.

 

Again you have no idea what I am talking about or what AGW is marketing.  They have never made this claim about grips. 

 

5 hours ago, RVRSE said:

If an agw video states that a certain grip textures will work better for certain grip strengths i caution people against this because its personal preference

 

You claimed that Atlas made this claim, not "if" they made this claim.  They have not so...........

 

Absolutely, what type of grip someone prefers is a personal preference.  Atlas has never made this claim you have asserted in your first post.  I just want to make sure others understand this.  Some people hate the grips that Atlas makes as a personal preference so it would not matter what the model of gun does for a given grip strength.  I am not a fan of their aggressive grip at all and I imagine I would not be a fan of some Cheely grips, as I like skin on my hands.

 

However, I do believe that Atlas is onto something with they way they have designed different models of guns for people with varying grip strengths, and are able to deliver these guns at a high quality and quicker than most other 2011 builders are able to do.  You and others might think its marketing bulls#!t.  It may well be, but I do not believe that its bulls#!t.  Other AGW customers do not believe that and are willing to pay a premium for their guns.  Sure you can get other 2011 to return to zero, but at what cost of time for the end user?  For me, the money I paid was worth it in the time I saved.    

 

I am just trying to help others that read this thread understand that.

 

5 hours ago, RVRSE said:

AGW videos are marketing and promotional material and they function as that primarily.

 

Of course they do.  As anyone posting the same videos would be for their products.  Atlas is also steering customers to the correct product that they make to fit them.  Is there something wrong with that?

 

Atlas guns are by far not the end all be all.  There are plenty of great 2011 builders out there.  There are also plenty of crappy 2011 builders charging people insane amounts of money for a sub par product.  I am just trying to point out, be careful on believing what someone says on internet forums is not always true.

 

You can call or think I am an Atlas fan boy.  This has nothing to do with Atlas and more to do with making sure a company is not properly represented.  I have done it for others, and will continue to do so when others want to spread mis-information about products or companies on forums.  

 

5 hours ago, RVRSE said:

be from a position of bad faith further on.

 

Bad faith???  Do you mean like stating indicating something a company has said when they never said it?

 

Bad faith???  Do you mean like adding words is subsequent posts to make your point that did not exist in you first post?

 

7 hours ago, RVRSE said:

I wouldn't get caught up in the atlas marketing thinking that certain grip strengths are required for certain grips.

 

Vs.

 

5 hours ago, RVRSE said:

i stated people shouldn't get caught up in the marketing and think that certain grip strengths will work for exclusively for whatever gun or grip

 

You are correct.  We shouldn't continue this conversation because you are coming from a position of bad faith.

Edited January 8, 2022 by Boomstick303