Shooting USPSA and IDPA?

[fraizer15]

On 1/16/2022 at 8:48 AM, tbarker13 said:

This brings back memories. Many years ago, I spent about a year going back and forth between the two. It was generally ok, though there were always those times when the rules from one game would slip over into the other. Hiding behind cover in USPA matches or dropping loaded mags in IDPA matches, etc. Always good for a few laughs (and the occasional PE, in the case of IDPA) during those matches.

In the end, if you want to be the best you can be at one of them - just focus on that one and then figure the other is just trigger time/practice under pressure.

 

I agree. I'm an old timer and shot USPSA since the mid 80's.  When I shot an IDPA match, I was told I commited an illegal reload because I did not have both feet firmly planted on the ground. I was told this is a rule in the IDPA rule book. After shooting USPSA for years and years, I could never keep both feet on the ground during a reload.  

[matteekay]

23 minutes ago, fraizer15 said:

I agree. I'm an old timer and shot USPSA since the mid 80's.  When I shot an IDPA match, I was told I commited an illegal reload because I did not have both feet firmly planted on the ground. I was told this is a rule in the IDPA rule book. After shooting USPSA for years and years, I could never keep both feet on the ground during a reload.  

 

Not a rule. Unless this was more than five years ago... then, I have no idea, but it sounds silly either way.

[Racinready300ex]

13 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

Not a rule. Unless this was more than five years ago... then, I have no idea, but it sounds silly either way.

 

That was a rule, probably 2013 ish maybe. It was fairly short lived. 

[GigG]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

That was a rule, probably 2013 ish maybe. It was fairly short lived. 

 

Was any logic ever given for the creation of that rule? It sounds pretty stupid especially if you are trying to be "self defense" oriented.

[Racinready300ex]

24 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

Was any logic ever given for the creation of that rule? It sounds pretty stupid especially if you are trying to be "self defense" oriented.

 

Man it's been a while I can't remember for sure. Before that you could reload on the move but only behind cover. Probably thinking in self defense you're not going to run down a hallway with a empty gun not knowing what's at the other end. You'd probably reload it before you moved on. It's logical depending on the situation. 

 

It was pretty hard to enforce, how do you watch someone's hands and feet at the same time. At least with a auto you can watch the feet and listen to for the slide to drop. Back then I shot revolver, no way you could tell for sure if I closed my cyl. before I moved my feet. Most of the time I wasn't even sure if I did or not. 

 

I think everyone hated that rule.

[matteekay]

13 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I think everyone hated that rule.

 

I hate it and it was gone before I started shooting IDPA.

Edited September 2, 2022 by matteekay

[rowdyb]

On 9/2/2022 at 10:24 AM, GigG said:

 

Was any logic ever given for the creation of that rule? It sounds pretty stupid especially if you are trying to be "self defense" oriented.

Yes, multiple. 1, back in the day we really argued a lot about if you were behind cover or not when you did a reload. Since there were no fault lines back then, this was very subjective and often contentious. It was felt it would reduce the number and severity of these arguments. If you're "flat footed" then it was supposed to be easier for the poor old SO to judge, versus having to see what some speedy youngster was doing. 2, at the time they said they'd consulted with a "top tactical trainer" (look at who are idpa OG's and you can get some good guesses) who told them that they'd never do a moving reload in a "real life tactical" situation and that they would always do them stationary behind cover. So in the continued conflation of tactics and the game it was pronounced a viable tactical thing so we should emulate it in the game.

 

So in the name of tactics, professional input, reducing arguments, easing the SO burden this was implemented. (And not by me, though I tried multiple times to get on a Tiger Team) Once we started shooting and seeing how it so wildly changed the nature of the game there was a revolt from the membership who actually shoots matches and they had to back  track on it to keep people happy. But first, iirc, they tried clarifying you could do a "basketball" reload, basically a one step pivot turn, but this wasn't good enough and equally stupid and contentious on the ground.

 

This, and going from 0.5 second per point down to 1.0 second per point down were really egregious changes and not totally thought through.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

they said they'd consulted with a "top tactical trainer" (look at who are idpa OG's and you can get some good guesses) who told them that they'd never do a moving reload in a "real life tactical" situation

 

LOL

[ddc]

On 9/3/2022 at 3:08 PM, rowdyb said:

 But first, iirc, they tried clarifying you could do a "basketball" reload, basically a one step pivot turn, but this wasn't good enough and equally stupid and contentious on the ground.

 

 

Ah yes, the "pivot foot reload". I remember that from my first IDPA match.

The SO tried to explain it to me and we both started laughing about half way through.

Thankfully didn't last long.

[BobRockefeller]

I shoot and enjoy them both. Lately I have concentrated on shooting the same gun in both sports - switching sports and guns didn't do well for me.

 

Finding a gun that I like that fits the rules of both sports has been mildly irritating. Shooting an Alien in ESP and A fudgecicle nobody but a few crayon chewers and winder likkers want has worked. I'm now working on getting back to my 1911 in 9mm for ESP and SS Minor.

[SnowShooter]

New to the forum. I've been shooting both and frankly the game/winning aspect is irrelevant to me. My goal is to be able to draw my carry gun and hit a target with a modicum of speed and accuracy. The crucial personal rules are for me to not cover anybody with my gun, load and aim safety, reholster safely. The nuances of power factors and modified gamer guns - my guns are close to my carry guns and my ammo is practice ammo that is close to carry in terms of recoil.  My holster is a workable carry holster carried on my belt that I can use on real world pants.  The USPSA competition holsters are convenient if I had a gamer rig but I use a carry holster and realistic mag pouch.

 

The USPSA track meet aspect is not for me. Planning reloads and dropping mags with ammo is not real world so I don't think that 'problem solving' has any relevance to me. Getting Cs because my As are too slow - millisecond difference that probably won't change a fight. A bad hit will.  The IDPA fault line, when to reload - stationary or on the move - that depends on the fight. In a fight,  I will take cover has trained in classes that for that sort of thing.  I will follow the game rules but they are stupid. Anybody with real world experience would think they are situationally dependent and you should be able to handle what works. Thus, they are just a game annoyance. Recalling the tactical reload stupidity vs. retention - when has this ever made a difference. In the vast majority of fights, the UPSPA planning your reload stream doesn't happen. You don't know where you opponents are. You would be a fool to attempt the complex tac reload under real stress. Shoot to slide lock and reload - that's probably real.

 

Anyway, I shoot for fun AND to get to the core of facing a target, drawing and hitting it well. Safety counts. Everything else is angles on the head of pin for gamers. Tell me the rules so I can shoot the targets and try to improve relevant aspects of shooting.

 

 

[pskys2]

2 hours ago, SnowShooter said:

New to the forum. I've been shooting both and frankly the game/winning aspect is irrelevant to me. My goal is to be able to draw my carry gun and hit a target with a modicum of speed and accuracy. The crucial personal rules are for me to not cover anybody with my gun, load and aim safety, reholster safely. The nuances of power factors and modified gamer guns - my guns are close to my carry guns and my ammo is practice ammo that is close to carry in terms of recoil.  My holster is a workable carry holster carried on my belt that I can use on real world pants.  The USPSA competition holsters are convenient if I had a gamer rig but I use a carry holster and realistic mag pouch.

 

The USPSA track meet aspect is not for me. Planning reloads and dropping mags with ammo is not real world so I don't think that 'problem solving' has any relevance to me. Getting Cs because my As are too slow - millisecond difference that probably won't change a fight. A bad hit will.  The IDPA fault line, when to reload - stationary or on the move - that depends on the fight. In a fight,  I will take cover has trained in classes that for that sort of thing.  I will follow the game rules but they are stupid. Anybody with real world experience would think they are situationally dependent and you should be able to handle what works. Thus, they are just a game annoyance. Recalling the tactical reload stupidity vs. retention - when has this ever made a difference. In the vast majority of fights, the UPSPA planning your reload stream doesn't happen. You don't know where you opponents are. You would be a fool to attempt the complex tac reload under real stress. Shoot to slide lock and reload - that's probably real.

 

Anyway, I shoot for fun AND to get to the core of facing a target, drawing and hitting it well. Safety counts. Everything else is angles on the head of pin for gamers. Tell me the rules so I can shoot the targets and try to improve relevant aspects of shooting.

 

 

I usually shoot IDPA with my actual carry gear, IWB holster and a S&W 325 TR or M&P 2.0 both in 45 ACP.  I actually like the time+ scoring as it puts a premium on accuracy, under stress as fast as you can.  The penalty for wild shots in real life can be catastrophic.  

I have shot USPSA since before it was USPSA, I like it over IDPA but locally not many revolver guys shoot it.  The rules make more sense to me, as there's less must do's in it.  And I like the make your own plan and perform it attribute.

My favorite is ICORE though, kind of an IDPA/USPSA mix with Revolvers.

My biggest issue with IDPA, and probably a telling rule, is the "no air gunning rule", I do struggle to not do that.  I understand the idea of the rule, but it is a sport albeit one used for training and it seems to me it would be better to be able to go to a position and test out the various forms one might take.  Then pick the right one and perform it under pressure, kind of the gist of training.  The idea that in a real situation one won't have time to pick the right one, and never having trained on the right one for a particular position, seems to beg for hesitation in the real world.

But it's a game, be safe, have fun and it'll all work out.

[Less]

On 9/13/2021 at 12:52 PM, Stafford said:

Anyone regularly switch back and forth between the two platforms? 

The last time I shot an IDPA match, I continued to drop loaded mags out of habit from USPSA.

 

Yes.

I had that happen a few times too.

 

But its all good... Truck on, bro. 

[zombywoof]

I shoot both.

 

One is speed with a little visual patience

 

The other is visual patience with a little speed

 

Simple

[MikeRussell]

1 hour ago, zombywoof said:

One is speed with a little visual patience

 

The other is visual patience with a little speed

 

That's very similar how I explain the difference when someone asks me about shooting both. I tell them USPSA is speed with acceptable accuracy and IDPA is accuracy with acceptable speed. 

[Bosshoss]

On 2/13/2023 at 2:08 PM, zombywoof said:

I shoot both.

 

One is speed with a little visual patience

 

The other is visual patience with a little speed

 

Simple

 

23 hours ago, MikeRussell said:

 

That's very similar how I explain the difference when someone asks me about shooting both. I tell them USPSA is speed with acceptable accuracy and IDPA is accuracy with acceptable speed. 

And all this time I thought the shooter that shot the fastest AND most accurately won at both games. 

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, Bosshoss said:

 

And all this time I thought the shooter that shot the fastest AND most accurately won at both games. 

Different formula,,, 
10 target COF (2 shots each) ... USPSA guy shoots   all A's in 10 seconds... Guy 2 shoots all A, C in 9 seconds.  They tie.
IDPA,, Guy shoots all A's (down o  ) in 10 seconds,, scores a 10;   Guy 2 shoots all  0 and down 1... Gets creamed..  scores a 20. 
I think thats right... 

[Racinready300ex]

You can have a pretty solid run in USPSA with just a couple Charlies. But, in IDPA being down 2 is going to make a blazing fast run kind of mediocre.

[Bosshoss]

18 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Different formula,,, 
10 target COF (2 shots each) ... USPSA guy shoots   all A's in 10 seconds... Guy 2 shoots all A, C in 9 seconds.  They tie.
IDPA,, Guy shoots all A's (down o  ) in 10 seconds,, scores a 10;   Guy 2 shoots all  0 and down 1... Gets creamed..  scores a 20. 
I think thats right... 

Sorry nothing in this post is right if I understand what you are saying.

Your example and your numbers for the most part.

USPSA- 10 targets = 100 points with all A's in 10 seconds gives a PF of 10

other shooter in your example shoots 1 C scored minor is 98 points in 9 seconds gives a PF of 10.888

It is NOT a tie.

IDPA 10 targets(although not legal in IDPA unless rule was changed the last time. 18 shots max.) we will go with your numbers to make it a more even comparison.

10 targets down 0 in 10 seconds gives a time of 10. 

other shooter shoots it down 1 but shoots it in 9 seconds(same as the USPSA shooter above) his adjusted time is also 10.

That is a tie.

The USPSA stage you used is a high hit factor stage and those are usually pretty hosey(SP?).

Both games have stages where accuracy is more important than speed and stages that speed can weigh more heavy.

Which is why I said above the one who wins in both games  is the one that is the most accurate the fastest. 

[Bosshoss]

19 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

You can have a pretty solid run in USPSA with just a couple Charlies. But, in IDPA being down 2 is going to make a blazing fast run kind of mediocre.

Your right in the accuracy department but the speed does matter in both games.

I still say the shooter that is the most accurate the fastest wins in both games.

[Racinready300ex]

5 minutes ago, Bosshoss said:

Your right in the accuracy department but the speed does matter in both games.

I still say the shooter that is the most accurate the fastest wins in both games.

 

Sure, just be faster and more accurate than everyone and you're golden. But, you'll shoot considerable slower in IDPA than USPSA if you're playing both games correctly. 

[waktasz]

On 10/2/2022 at 4:08 PM, SnowShooter said:

New to the forum. I've been shooting both and frankly the game/winning aspect is irrelevant to me. My goal is to be able to draw my carry gun and hit a target with a modicum of speed and accuracy. The crucial personal rules are for me to not cover anybody with my gun, load and aim safety, reholster safely. The nuances of power factors and modified gamer guns - my guns are close to my carry guns and my ammo is practice ammo that is close to carry in terms of recoil.  My holster is a workable carry holster carried on my belt that I can use on real world pants.  The USPSA competition holsters are convenient if I had a gamer rig but I use a carry holster and realistic mag pouch.

 

The USPSA track meet aspect is not for me. Planning reloads and dropping mags with ammo is not real world so I don't think that 'problem solving' has any relevance to me. Getting Cs because my As are too slow - millisecond difference that probably won't change a fight. A bad hit will.  The IDPA fault line, when to reload - stationary or on the move - that depends on the fight. In a fight,  I will take cover has trained in classes that for that sort of thing.  I will follow the game rules but they are stupid. Anybody with real world experience would think they are situationally dependent and you should be able to handle what works. Thus, they are just a game annoyance. Recalling the tactical reload stupidity vs. retention - when has this ever made a difference. In the vast majority of fights, the UPSPA planning your reload stream doesn't happen. You don't know where you opponents are. You would be a fool to attempt the complex tac reload under real stress. Shoot to slide lock and reload - that's probably real.

 

Anyway, I shoot for fun AND to get to the core of facing a target, drawing and hitting it well. Safety counts. Everything else is angles on the head of pin for gamers. Tell me the rules so I can shoot the targets and try to improve relevant aspects of shooting.

 

 

 

This is why USPSA shooters show up to IDPA matches and destroy them. Embrace the game and train to improve for the game. I promise it won't ruin your CCW capability. 

[Racinready300ex]

29 minutes ago, Bosshoss said:

Sorry nothing in this post is right if I understand what you are saying.

Your example and your numbers for the most part.

USPSA- 10 targets = 100 points with all A's in 10 seconds gives a PF of 10

other shooter in your example shoots 1 C scored minor is 98 points in 9 seconds gives a PF of 10.888

It is NOT a tie.

IDPA 10 targets(although not legal in IDPA unless rule was changed the last time. 18 shots max.) we will go with your numbers to make it a more even comparison.

10 targets down 0 in 10 seconds gives a time of 10. 

other shooter shoots it down 1 but shoots it in 9 seconds(same as the USPSA shooter above) his adjusted time is also 10.

That is a tie.

The USPSA stage you used is a high hit factor stage and those are usually pretty hosey(SP?).

Both games have stages where accuracy is more important than speed and stages that speed can weigh more heavy.

Which is why I said above the one who wins in both games  is the one that is the most accurate the fastest. 

 

I had to read his post twice too. You got the all A's in 10 is a 10 HF part. Then he was saying A/C on every target. So 10 (A) and 10 (C) for 90 points in 9 seconds is still a 10 HF so they tie. Being down 10 in IDPA would double your score to 20 with a 10 second raw time.  It's a extreme example but it makes for easier math to explain. 

 

IDPA is basically a fixed HF of 2.5. Personally I've never shot a uspsa stage with that low of a HHF.

[matteekay]

12 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

IDPA is basically a fixed HF of 2.5. Personally I've never shot a uspsa stage with that low of a HHF.

 

Revolver division beckons.

[Scotty_JR]

I shoot both. In the beginning of my journey, shooting both sports was harder. Especially if you wanted to do well at either, for me. So I put USPSA on the back burner. 

 

But now that I'm further in my skill level, I would like to transition to more USPSA. The talent pool is much deeper.