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Possible squib/double charge?


gerritm
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Any ideas on what would cause this? Never seen it before. Many seasoned shooters heard and saw this, and no good ideas. Glock 40 with a newish Lone Wolf barrel His reloads, I believe plated 165 or 180, Titegroup 4.0grs. not sure on OAL, but he is an experienced reloader on a Dillon 650.

 

While shooting the stage we all heard a click/no obvious squib poof sound or primer. We were close. Racked round out, did not find it. Next round chambered and went off with lots of smoke out of chamber and RO called stop. Did not blow out mag. Could not rack it. Went to safe table and disassembled gun. Found the Wolf barrel split completely top and bottom with no projectile stuck in barrel. Almost like it split on a seam. No obvious damage to gun as far as we could tell, just the barrel. Chamber was intact. 

 

Would have thought if it was a squib, bullet would be stuck in barrel. Out of battery? Double charge? If double charge would have thought more damage. Defective Wolf barrel?  Ideas?

 

gerritm

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A squib can sound like a click.

 

It sounds like there was a squib, likely leaving the bullet in the bore (BIB) and the second round was normal, but with two bullets, pressures soared and resulted in the damage you experienced.

 

If the BIB was closed enough so that the new round bullet contacted it, there would be no ring in the barrel.  If there was space, there should be a ring.

 

 

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Probably a significant undercharge where the bullet went partially down the barrel.  A primer barely pushes the bullet into the rifling and you won't be able to chamber a round behind it.  A small amount of powder will push the bullet into the bore but not out of it.

 

Although ultimately the competitor's fault, this was preventable and the RO should have yelled stop after the first instance. 

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21 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

Probably a significant undercharge where the bullet went partially down the barrel.  A primer barely pushes the bullet into the rifling and you won't be able to chamber a round behind it.  A small amount of powder will push the bullet into the bore but not out of it.

 

Although ultimately the competitor's fault, this was preventable and the RO should have yelled stop after the first instance. 

We were all within 10 feet of the shooter and there was no indication of a squib. Only a click like a high primer. We have all heard squibs. Very experienced RO. Can't stop on a typical striker sound. Would not of thought if there was a squib round in the bore the second would have chambered & pushed both out. Nothing in the barrel, just split.

 

gerritm

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I'm gonna go with the round being too long. When it is too long, the bullet head gets jammed in the rifling, gun doesn't fully go into battery. Since it isn't fully into battery, the striker doesn't hit the primer enough to set it off. When he ejected the round, he pulled the slide back and the case came with it, leaving loose powder and more importantly, the bullet head stuck in the rifling (probably explains why you can't find the round - you guys were looking for a complete round, not an empty case - if possible, look at all the brass laying around and see if there is a piece with a just slightly dimpled primer). The next round probably compressed some (bullet setback) AND pushed the stuck bullet further into the barrel / chamber, with the gun going completely into battery, which it was able to fire from. The resulting pressure split the barrel and the excessive smoke was the un-contained powder being burnt off. I've seen several squibs shot out of barrels, with one barrel splitting and two others bulging. There was no bullet in any of those 3 barrels. Generally, a squib only stays in the barrel if another round is not fired behind it, from my experience.

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2 hours ago, GrumpyOne said:

I'm gonna go with the round being too long. When it is too long, the bullet head gets jammed in the rifling, gun doesn't fully go into battery. Since it isn't fully into battery, the striker doesn't hit the primer enough to set it off. When he ejected the round, he pulled the slide back and the case came with it, leaving loose powder and more importantly, the bullet head stuck in the rifling (probably explains why you can't find the round - you guys were looking for a complete round, not an empty case - if possible, look at all the brass laying around and see if there is a piece with a just slightly dimpled primer). The next round probably compressed some (bullet setback) AND pushed the stuck bullet further into the barrel / chamber, with the gun going completely into battery, which it was able to fire from. The resulting pressure split the barrel and the excessive smoke was the un-contained powder being burnt off. I've seen several squibs shot out of barrels, with one barrel splitting and two others bulging. There was no bullet in any of those 3 barrels. Generally, a squib only stays in the barrel if another round is not fired behind it, from my experience.

 

I would say that isn't what happened.  if you try to chamber a round behind a bullet stuck in the bore in that manner, it won't chamber.  There's no way a recoil spring has enough force to push a bullet that far into the bore.  The only way a bullet gets far enough down the bore to fire another round behind it is if it was fired with at least some amount of power and therefor pushed with some pressure.  It takes a great deal of force to push the bullet, which is an interference fit with the bore, far enough into it to chamber another round behind it.

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4 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

 

I would say that isn't what happened.  if you try to chamber a round behind a bullet stuck in the bore in that manner, it won't chamber.  There's no way a recoil spring has enough force to push a bullet that far into the bore.  The only way a bullet gets far enough down the bore to fire another round behind it is if it was fired with at least some amount of power and therefor pushed with some pressure.  It takes a great deal of force to push the bullet, which is an interference fit with the bore, far enough into it to chamber another round behind it.

I tend to agree. I have never seen a round chamber over a round that got separated by racking it out.

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With lead 200gr bullets in 45's, I've seen numerous primer only squibs that left the bullet 2.5 - 4 inches down the bore.

 

Great if the BIB prevents chambering another round, but many ringed barrels would seem to indicate it cannot be counted on. 

 

BIB = bullet in bore

 

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1 hour ago, twodownzero said:

 

I would say that isn't what happened.  if you try to chamber a round behind a bullet stuck in the bore in that manner, it won't chamber.  There's no way a recoil spring has enough force to push a bullet that far into the bore.  The only way a bullet gets far enough down the bore to fire another round behind it is if it was fired with at least some amount of power and therefor pushed with some pressure.  It takes a great deal of force to push the bullet, which is an interference fit with the bore, far enough into it to chamber another round behind it.

If the bullet was just a bit undersized though...

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All good ideas, but how does whatever happened, if a squib, push 2 projectiles thru the barrel & cause enough pressure to split the barrel, but not damage the gun, mag, frame or slide or internal parts. I have never seen a squib round not get stuck, whether far enough to chamber a round behind it or not. I am sure we have not seen it all, but between all the other guys there was many many years of experience and could not figure it out. All had different opinions.

 

gerritm

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You can chamber a 9mm round entirely into a .40 barrel, rack the slide a fire a .40 behind it. That could have happened if he did not observe the ejection of a dud round.

 

I think that grumpone's explanation is most likely if brass was observed ejecting when the slide was racked (happened to me, but the bullet in the barrel was not far enough to allow a round to load behind it and there was unspent powder in the gun itself) 

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1 hour ago, DesertTortoise said:

You can chamber a 9mm round entirely into a .40 barrel, rack the slide a fire a .40 behind it. That could have happened if he did not observe the ejection of a dud round.

 

I think that grumpone's explanation is most likely if brass was observed ejecting when the slide was racked (happened to me, but the bullet in the barrel was not far enough to allow a round to load behind it and there was unspent powder in the gun itself) 

 

Typically a Glock's extractor will hold the rim of the 9mm round enough to actually fire the round, but no recoil to cycle the slide.  I've seen this at the range when a wise acre handed his buddy a magazine loaded with 9mm for his Glock "40", much hilarity ensued.  I still have one of the empties.

 

Nolan

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Just a WAG but I wonder if the squib made it down the bbl almost to the end and the second round built enough psi that split the bbl, expanding it and pushing both bullets out. Could it be that the bbl was also kind of thin? They usually split along the groove, maybe a little weak in one area?

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I could agree with this if the first was a squib. You are all missing that there was at least 5 or 6 very experienced shooters within 10 feet of this besides the RO & score keeper. No sound or smoke, nothing to indicate a squib round especially if it had enough to get it that far down the barrel. Would have heard something. We all have amplified hearing pros. someone would have heard something and we all agreed nothing other than the normal click sound of the striker/FP. Need to be quite a bit of back pressure to split the barrel that bad and yet not hurt anything else.

 

gerritm

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38 minutes ago, gerritm said:

I could agree with this if the first was a squib. You are all missing that there was at least 5 or 6 very experienced shooters within 10 feet of this besides the RO & score keeper. No sound or smoke, nothing to indicate a squib round especially if it had enough to get it that far down the barrel. Would have heard something. We all have amplified hearing pros. someone would have heard something and we all agreed nothing other than the normal click sound of the striker/FP. Need to be quite a bit of back pressure to split the barrel that bad and yet not hurt anything else.

 

gerritm

 

Not at all.  Mine cracked the barrel and the barrel bushing.  The remainder of the gun is still in service to this day.  I got two alphas, too.

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I guess my takeaway on this and all the others I’ve read is to pay close attention and double check a click-no bang even if it costs you some time. 

Edited by Farmer
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