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About the 5x5 Classifier


Ontarget
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The 5x5 classifier tests very few self-defense skills and is mostly a speed drill. It is convenient to the point that I rarely see clubs offer the long classifier anymore. I think the original IDPA classifier was excellent. IDPA HQ and staff truly got it right the first time. I wish they would eliminate the 5x5 and reinstate the original classifier.

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11 minutes ago, Ontarget said:

The 5x5 classifier tests very few self-defense skills and is mostly a speed drill. It is convenient to the point that I rarely see clubs offer the long classifier anymore. I think the original IDPA classifier was excellent. IDPA HQ and staff truly got it right the first time. I wish they would eliminate the 5x5 and reinstate the original classifier.

 

Neither of your classifiers test any self-defense skills

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3 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Neither of your classifiers test any self-defense skills

Oh I see that’s your opinion, but according to a lot of IDPA shooters being able to manipulate there carry weapon several times a month and getting good 1st shots off and hits, it does give them some sort of tactical/self-defense accreditation to their shooting skills and peace of mind.. They are way ahead of the rest of the carrying crowd that got their carry card,fired 25 rounds to get it and hasn’t touched their weapon for months or years.

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7 minutes ago, GmanCdp said:

Oh I see that’s your opinion, but according to a lot of IDPA shooters being able to manipulate there carry weapon several times a month and getting good 1st shots off and hits, it does give them some sort of tactical/self-defense accreditation to their shooting skills and peace of mind.. They are way ahead of the rest of the carrying crowd that got their carry card,fired 25 rounds to get it and hasn’t touched their weapon for months or years.

 

He specifically mentioned only the 2 classifiers not the matches themselves.

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2 hours ago, GmanCdp said:

Oh I see that’s your opinion, but according to a lot of IDPA shooters being able to manipulate there carry weapon several times a month and getting good 1st shots off and hits, it does give them some sort of tactical/self-defense accreditation to their shooting skills and peace of mind.. They are way ahead of the rest of the carrying crowd that got their carry card,fired 25 rounds to get it and hasn’t touched their weapon for months or years.

 

IDPA classifiers, of any sort, are shooting skill tests not self defense skills tests

 

So are matches, BTW

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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6 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

I agree, the long classifier is a far better skills test than the 5x5.

I agree with this, but I am guessing they wanted it to be faster for everyone.  I would like IDPA to do a classifier in the middle of a match like USPSA does.

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15 hours ago, GmanCdp said:

Where did I mention matches ?

 

When you say that IDPA shooters have the chance to manipulate their carry guns "several times a month" getting off first shots and hits, that sounds like shooting mstches. People can shoot several matches per month.  It's not the norm to just shoot the classifier several times a month.

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There are/were three classifiers, the original 90 shot, a 72 shot which is still on the books, and the 25 shot.

 

https://www.idpa.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/IDPA_Standard_Classifier_Stages.pdf

 

Ask your MD to set up the 72.  

 

Years ago, a member devised a 54 shot classifier claimed to test the same things as the 90 but it did not fly.

Edited by Jim Watson
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I miss the 90 shot classifier..... my "how to" vidoes of them on youtube always got great views. hahaha.

I was at the idpa nats where we all shot the 5x5 for them to get their classifier data. It is a great abbreviated classifier but i wish their had been a proviso that it could only be run once per every three times a club runs the longer, more traditional classifier.

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I'm no statistics expert by any stretch but it's always bothered me that the 25 round classifier seems like a very small sample size compared to either 72 or 90.

Seems like it would be easier to go "zero or hero" with it.

I know people who have classified EX with it who would most likely be just strong SS with either of the longer courses.

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My club still runs the 90 round classifier once a year. I think it's a much better measure of skill than the 5x5 classifier., which my club runs several times a year. But there's a lot of overhead in running the full classifier.  It's like running a full match, so I understand why they only do it once a year.

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4 hours ago, ddc said:

I'm no statistics expert by any stretch but it's always bothered me that the 25 round classifier seems like a very small sample size compared to either 72 or 90.

Seems like it would be easier to go "zero or hero" with it.

I know people who have classified EX with it who would most likely be just strong SS with either of the longer courses.

 

I agree. I'm the opposite - I've tanked the 5x5 a few times but punch up when it comes to real stages. This is why I prefer the USPSA rolling average approach; it feels more "true" to the level of the shooter in most cases. 

 

I get why IDPA can't do that and I'm not necessarily arguing for it. Just plus-one-ing your assertion that the 5x5 feels all-or-nothing and not particularly accurate.

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On 8/29/2021 at 6:28 PM, GmanCdp said:

Oh I see that’s your opinion, but according to a lot of IDPA shooters being able to manipulate there carry weapon several times a month and getting good 1st shots off and hits, it does give them some sort of tactical/self-defense accreditation to their shooting skills and peace of mind.. They are way ahead of the rest of the carrying crowd that got their carry card,fired 25 rounds to get it and hasn’t touched their weapon for months or years.

your IDPA matches must be very different from the ones I have been to, Almost nobody here uses their carry gear, everyone seems to shoot competition specific guns and holsters, they all conform to the rules so in theory they could be carried but 99% of the shooters I have ever spoken to are not shooting what they carry how they carry it. 

 

Yes competing with a firearm is a million % better than not practicing with one, but don't be fooled into thinking any competition is defensive "training" they are all just competitions with arbitrary rules and a winner determined by those rules.

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I thought the whole idea in IDPA was to classifier MM and collect wood getting bumped to SS in all divisions. Then bump to EX in all divisions and so on. No one tried to do well on the classifier, it's only done because it has to be. 

 

Or at least that's what the locals seem to do. 

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25 minutes ago, Jim Watson said:

Not unique to IDPA.  As a guy here said:  "With a big match coming up, I'd rather be a high B than a low A."

 

It happens sure, but not as much I don't think. Most guys who say that probably aren't winning B class either.

 

Basically everyone at my local club that travels to major IDPA matches have said they want the match bumps. There is no prestige to getting a classification via the classifier. I can remember a bunch of guys starting as MM who are now MA in at least one division. Which means they one MM in all the main divisions then, won SS in all of them and are now working on EX in all of them. I know a couple guys who've done it with EX and now finally compete as a MA at matches. No one willingly competes at their highest classification. 

 

Everyone thought I was crazy a few years ago trying to make MA on the classifier a few months before worlds because I didn't want to go as a EX. 

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15 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

It happens sure, but not as much I don't think.

 

It's definitely a lot harder to game in USPSA since you'd have to shoot for a specific score on six classifiers instead of one. The other wrinkle is that IDPA renews your classification whenever you compete in sanctioned matches, so you can retain the lower classification just by showing up.

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The only time I ever shot Expert on the Classifier was when it was "imbedded" in the first Summer Sizzler in Tennessee.  And it didn't count because it was not shot in order.  I got match bumps to Expert in ESP and CDP, but the CDP never made it to HQ and I still show SS there.  

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I don't see the issue with the 5x5. Its quick and easy to set up/tear down. It still tests your shooting and gun manipulation.  It must not be too easy...plenty of folks still SS and MM

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20 minutes ago, jpm2953 said:

I don't see the issue with the 5x5. Its quick and easy to set up/tear down. It still tests your shooting and gun manipulation.  It must not be too easy...plenty of folks still SS and MM

 

A lot of guys around here claim to not give the 5x5 their all because they want to get match bumps. I sometimes wonder if that's really a ego thing. If they tried and didn't make ___ classification that's a hit to the ego. But if you don't try, then sucking is okay. It's a defense mechanism really. 

 

The biggest benefit is like you said quick and easy. If I decide I want to shoot Bug at a major in two weeks I can easily get someone to set up and run me through the 5x5. Most people at my club have never even seen the long classifier. IMO the long classifier is a much better test. 

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