Is SCSA big enough to have its own BOD?

[Hoops]

43 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

Probably. It's how I am too. I shoot steel as a fun and easy diversion, but my focus and passion is USPSA.

This may go to the heart of why this topic was started.  There are many people who have a passion for SCSA and there are many examples of why people feel that their voice or representation from USPSA.org is not on equal status with USPSA(the sport).   It's not that something is broken or needs to be fixed but simple things like discussing things that could improve SCSA and not having an advocate to go to.  

 

I love USPSA....but I am broken down with too much metal in my body to handle it anymore.  SCSA is great from me......I enjoy the speed and the challenge of only Alpha's or Mike's.  But rarely have I had a discussion with a USPSA shooter about things that may improve SCSA matches.  

 

So this brings us back to the original question of adding to the BOD's.....which is really adding AD's.  As far as SC's.....most people don't even know there are SC's.  I do believe that it would be a positive addition to the the whole organization to have AD's that represent both shooting diciplines.  But that's from my perspective which may not be in the majority of SCSA shooters.  

 

Meanwhile......I will shoot as many SCSA a month as I can....for as long as I can.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[Hoops]

I have had several email with USPSA.org on the subject of Area Directors, Section Coordinators, directory, etc.  I received the following reply this morning.  I am not including the names of the folks at USPSA Headquarters who replied (there were 2 of them involved with my request for info).

 

Here is the reply....exactly as I received it:

 

"SCSA clubs are not in sections or areas. Areas and Sections ONLY apply to USPSA Clubs. 

So for this reason, there is not Area Map on the SCSA website. To find your Area Director, please use this tool:

https://uspsa.org/areas"

 

Not much more I can add.  

[Racinready300ex]

11 minutes ago, Hoops said:

I have had several email with USPSA.org on the subject of Area Directors, Section Coordinators, directory, etc.  I received the following reply this morning.  I am not including the names of the folks at USPSA Headquarters who replied (there were 2 of them involved with my request for info).

 

Here is the reply....exactly as I received it:

 

"SCSA clubs are not in sections or areas. Areas and Sections ONLY apply to USPSA Clubs. 

So for this reason, there is not Area Map on the SCSA website. To find your Area Director, please use this tool:

https://uspsa.org/areas"

 

Not much more I can add.  

 

If SC club can't be in a section or area why did they give you a link to find your AD? 

[Hoops]

11 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If SC club can't be in a section or area why did they give you a link to find your AD? 

The link is for USPSA AD's and under USPSA website.

 

I can only read the text that was written.   

 

It is right?  Is it wrong?  Was it confusingly worded?  I do not know.  I do know that I won't be asking again.  

 

Thanks

 

 

[Hoops]

3 minutes ago, Hoops said:

The link is for USPSA AD's and under USPSA website.

 

I can only read the text that was written.   

 

It is right?  Is it wrong?  Was it confusingly worded?  I do not know.  I do know that I won't be asking again.  

 

Thanks

 

 

For the benefit of doubt of wording:

 

Perhaps it should have said that separate Area AD's and Area's are not defined specifically for SCSA and instead SCSA falls under the USPSA Area's and AD shown in the USPSA website.   

 

Perhaps that is what was meant.

 

 

 

[Hoops]

36 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

If SC club can't be in a section or area why did they give you a link to find your AD? 

Ok.  I said I would not ask again.....but not wanting to add any untrue information, I did just now ask for a clarification if the text was meant to be as written or were they perhaps trying to indicate SCSA falls under the USPSA links and AD's.

 

I will let you know what the reply is.  

[Hoops]

I decided after I sent the email to also phone Headquarters to speak with the person about this.

 

I am waiting on a phone call.

 

Hopefully it was just a wording issue and not literal.  

 

 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Hoops said:

I decided after I sent the email to also phone Headquarters to speak with the person about this.

 

 

sign up for the world speed shoot. All the folks from HQ should be there. We shared squads with both the former president and jake martens at the last two worlds, and had a lot of good conversations about both uspsa and steel challenge.  Tell them you would like to be the Area director for steel for your area. I'd vote for you. From my personal observation, only a handful of the people who shoot steel seem to be willing to step up and organize matches and lead the direction of the sport, so I'm sure HQ would be elated to have someone volunteer to take on some of that role.

 

Start sharing some of your ideas to grow and improve the sport here on enos, and with your AD. If other people agree, they will contact their AD's

 

However, if you are expecting someone else to step up and do the work, and you just want HQ to create a position that you are not interested in filling, you may be disappointed.

[Hoops]

7 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

sign up for the world speed shoot. All the folks from HQ should be there. We shared squads with both the former president and jake martens at the last two worlds, and had a lot of good conversations about both uspsa and steel challenge.  Tell them you would like to be the Area director for steel for your area. I'd vote for you. From my personal observation, only a handful of the people who shoot steel seem to be willing to step up and organize matches and lead the direction of the sport, so I'm sure HQ would be elated to have someone volunteer to take on some of that role.

 

Start sharing some of your ideas to grow and improve the sport here on enos, and with your AD. If other people agree, they will contact their AD's

 

However, if you are expecting someone else to step up and do the work, and you just want HQ to create a position that you are not interested in filling, you may be disappointed.

Excellent idea.  I did shoot the Area 4 Texas match and met some good folks there.  It was a fun and organized match.  

 

Covid prevented me from going to WSS 2020 and 2021 but I’m planning to go to 2022 and the April 2022 Area 4 match back in Texas.

 

nothing beats personal talks......especially when it involves shooting sports.

 

FWIW......I’ve learned today that SCSA is not structured with areas and AD’s.  The references to Areas is just for geographical references related to sanctioned (USPSA.org approved) Level III or II matches.   Ideas, suggestions, etc should be forwarded directly to Headquarters.  
 

thanks

 

 

[warpspeed]

On 9/7/2021 at 4:01 AM, Hoops said:

Do you mind stating whether you shoot USPSA only or you shoot SCSA as well?

 

Thanks

 

I don't mind at all.

 

I haven't shot a USPSA match in years - probably should just for fun. 

 

I try to get out and shoot SC monthly but usually only make it to a formal match a couple of times a year.

 

Now your turn -  A separate BoD is needed because ?  

 

[Hoops]

3 minutes ago, warpspeed said:

 

I don't mind at all.

 

I haven't shot a USPSA match in years - probably should just for fun. 

 

I try to get out and shoot SC monthly but usually only make it to a formal match a couple of times a year.

 

Now your turn -  A separate BoD is needed because ?  

 

As this topic has progressed there has been additional information directly from USPSA HQ today.  Today it was learned that SC is not structured with Area’s and AD’s.  
 

Consequently, the BOD for SCSA is made up of USPSA Corporate and 8 USPSA AD’s.

 

So under this structure, another Enos member posed the question of should SCSA have its own separate BOD representatives.  A reasonable question resulting in a variety of responses.

 

 

 

 

 

[Gregg K]

4 hours ago, Hoops said:

"SCSA clubs are not in sections or areas. Areas and Sections ONLY apply to USPSA Clubs. 

So we just had an Area 4 Steel Challenge Championship when there isn't any "Areas"

WTF over.

[hornetx40]

Unless USPSA was willing to sell SCSA another board for SCSA is useless as it would just be controlled by the BOD of USPSA.  Why would the BOD ever allow that. Why would they ever give up control? The BOD owns SCSA. Nothing will change until someone is willing to buy SCSA from USPSA, Or the BOD is shifted through elections.

[Hoops]

5 minutes ago, Gregg K said:

So we just had an Area 4 Steel Challenge Championship when there isn't any "Areas"

WTF over.

Directly from USPSA HQ today after I questioned the first email.

 

2nd Email from USPSA:

I will confirm again, SCSA clubs are not in sections or areas. Areas and Sections ONLY apply to USPSA Clubs technically. The matches naming themselves Area X championship is a geographical reference and those matches are simply a Tier II or Tier III SCSA Match. 

 

3rd Email from a higher up USPSA than Email 2:

 

Individual clubs are not assigned to a section or area.

However, Tier 3 matches can requested to be sanctioned as an area championship, regional, or nationals. Tier 2 can request to be section/state championship and this is under appendix A1 in the  rules and policies for sanctioned these events.

 

I am only the messenger in this as this post made me curious of how SCSA is structured.  So I asked HQ and these were the replies.

 

 

 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Gregg K said:

So we just had an Area 4 Steel Challenge Championship when there isn't any "Areas"

WTF over.

Damn, I hope we don't have to throw away our A1 championship trophies...

Edited September 9, 2021 by motosapiens

[Hoops]

I was asking USPSA who the Area 4 AD and SC was for SCSA and was surprised by the answer.  It never occurred to me that the USPSA areas was specifically for USPSA.  I guess it has never come up before.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[warpspeed]

2 hours ago, Hoops said:

As this topic has progressed there has been additional information directly from USPSA HQ today.  Today it was learned that SC is not structured with Area’s and AD’s.  
 

Consequently, the BOD for SCSA is made up of USPSA Corporate and 8 USPSA AD’s.

 

So under this structure, another Enos member posed the question of should SCSA have its own separate BOD representatives.  A reasonable question resulting in a variety of responses.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

OK, but to fix what problem?

 

Rules ?    We don't need another group of people for that.

 

Divisions ?  We don't need another group of people for that.

 

Different stages ? We don't need another group of people for that.

 

Match calendar conflicts ? We don't need another group of people for that.

 

 

 

 

[bgary]

gaah.  double-tap....

Edited September 10, 2021 by bgary

[bgary]

...make that triple.  Ugh.

Edited September 10, 2021 by bgary

[bgary]

On 9/3/2021 at 7:30 AM, Hoops said:

Are non-paid, non-voting Section Coordinator's to be appointed to each State within the Area to help the AD cover the wide expanse of each Area (multiple states?).  There is no information I could find on Section Coordinators in either USPSA or SCSA website links.

 

Generally, yes.  Think of it as a loose heirarchy:  clubs represent the interests/concerns/needs of their shooters, Section Coordinators represent the interest of their clubs, Area Directors represent the interests of the Sections.  Except that (while I adhere to that) I try to respond to questions I get from members and clubs, too.  

 

On 9/3/2021 at 7:30 AM, Hoops said:

Back to this poll and adding a separate BOD for SCSA.  As an Area Director, what are your thoughts on the idea of having one Area MD each for USPSA and SCSA? 

 

My current thoughts are ... I'm not opposed, but not convinced the need outweighs the complexity.  Right now, the Area Directors pay attention to (and are working to grow) both Steel Challenge and USPSA matches.  It doesn't feel to me like that is broken.

 

I'd also note that each AD has a budget for traveling to visit Sections in the Area, and also incurs travel costs for in-person Board meetings.  If we doubled the number of ADs, we'd double those costs.  Not necessarily a reason not to do it, but something to consider.

[bgary]

On 9/4/2021 at 1:49 AM, RaylanGivens said:

I'm curious whether AD's bring up Steel Challenge issues in the BOD meetings?  I don't normally read the BOD minutes...  I'm a USPSA CRO with the Steel Challenge Endorsement.

 

Would you be willing to bring up @Hoops suggestion for smaller versions of Outer Limits and Speed Option?  There are lots of clubs that can't fit OL or SO in their current bays...  It would give them an option to run eight stage Steel Challenge matches...  or at least cycle through eight different stages.

 

Yes, and yes!  Note, too, that clubs have some options.  For a Tier-1 match, The only requirement is that at least two official stages be included - the club could include smaller versions of OL or SO among the other stages they put into the match.  

[bgary]

On 9/7/2021 at 1:29 PM, Racinready300ex said:

I thought the SC is elected by the MD's. They're probably in charge of the section match if there is one. And I know they're supposed to help new clubs get setup and started. A MD will likely know more.

 

Generally true.  It varies from place to place, but in general a Section is formed when there are a number of clubs within a geographic locale that want to work together (coordinating calendars, bringing in RO seminars, pooling activity for Nationals slots, etc).

Each Section is required to have section bylaws that specify how the Section Coordinator is elected, and how slots will be distributed.  I have 12 Sections in Area-1, and I think all 12 of them elect the Section Coordinator at the club level - each club-representative has one vote in the process.

[Thomas H]

Couple of comments:

When I was an SC (when asking about steel Challenge clubs in my Section), I was told that I wasn't to be given access to the activity of the clubs in my Section with regard to Steel Challenge as my job was USPSA, and I wasn't the Section Coordinator for Steel Challenge.

 

Literally, I wasn't supposed to be talking to clubs about it.  So....if you heard that from SCs and such, it was probably because they were told it wasn't anything they were supposed to be doing.  (I'm not precisely sure why, you'd think it would be the same thing, but it isn't...)

 

I'll note that when I was the Section Coordinator, in addition to shooting USPSA and SCSA (and I'm not only in Club 13, I'm in Club 21), not only did I talk to people about SC, but I started a Level II Steel Challenge match at my local club and ran it as long as I was the SC.    I talked clubs into adding on Steel Challenge affiliation, and more matches.  I personally think that SCSA is a great sport by itself, AND a great way to start people in the shooting sports in general, many of whom also end up shooting USPSA.  (Or at least, that's how it works out here.  There is a LOT of crossover in terms of people shooting both sports.  It interests me how many people are saying that the two groups are fairly separate in their area.)

 

I get how people are saying "we aren't represented" but what I'm not getting out of this thread is exactly what problems there are at the moment.  And....you vote on ADs just like everyone else.  You have a USPSA/SCSA membership.  When voting for your ADs, make sure that SC is a part of why you vote.

 

Are there current issues that are serious problems?  How is the current BoD failing their Steel Challenge people?

 

Every time someone has asked that question, no one has actually listed any actual answers.  And as for the "we want to be proactive!" I get that---but shouldn't that mean making sure the current ADs and SCs actually pay attention to SC, instead of (as someone else pointed out) literally adding another layer of bureaucracy to this?

 

That's my opinion, at least.  As someone who shoots a number of Steel Challenge matches (29 this year so far, including 3 majors, plus one more major next week) in addition to being an RM who has the SC endorsement (and I was the RM for the Area 3 Steel Challenge Championship), plus being a member of Club 13 (I have three A classifications, one M, and the other nine are GM)-----I really enjoy shooting Steel Challenge. 

 

And at the moment, I think a better solution to "we aren't being represented" is to have the BoD acknowledge officially that the Areas and Sections also include the SC clubs in them, and that the ADs and SCs also need to be taking care of their SC clubs.

 

And if those people don't want to do it---well, that's why we vote.

 

My opinion.

[Nolan]

Perfect!

 

Nolan

[bigdawgbeav]

16 hours ago, Thomas H said:

Couple of comments:

When I was an SC (when asking about steel Challenge clubs in my Section), I was told that I wasn't to be given access to the activity of the clubs in my Section with regard to Steel Challenge as my job was USPSA, and I wasn't the Section Coordinator for Steel Challenge.

 

Literally, I wasn't supposed to be talking to clubs about it.  So....if you heard that from SCs and such, it was probably because they were told it wasn't anything they were supposed to be doing.  (I'm not precisely sure why, you'd think it would be the same thing, but it isn't...)

 

I'll note that when I was the Section Coordinator, in addition to shooting USPSA and SCSA (and I'm not only in Club 13, I'm in Club 21), not only did I talk to people about SC, but I started a Level II Steel Challenge match at my local club and ran it as long as I was the SC.    I talked clubs into adding on Steel Challenge affiliation, and more matches.  I personally think that SCSA is a great sport by itself, AND a great way to start people in the shooting sports in general, many of whom also end up shooting USPSA.  (Or at least, that's how it works out here.  There is a LOT of crossover in terms of people shooting both sports.  It interests me how many people are saying that the two groups are fairly separate in their area.)

 

I get how people are saying "we aren't represented" but what I'm not getting out of this thread is exactly what problems there are at the moment.  And....you vote on ADs just like everyone else.  You have a USPSA/SCSA membership.  When voting for your ADs, make sure that SC is a part of why you vote.

 

Are there current issues that are serious problems?  How is the current BoD failing their Steel Challenge people?

 

Every time someone has asked that question, no one has actually listed any actual answers.  And as for the "we want to be proactive!" I get that---but shouldn't that mean making sure the current ADs and SCs actually pay attention to SC, instead of (as someone else pointed out) literally adding another layer of bureaucracy to this?

 

That's my opinion, at least.  As someone who shoots a number of Steel Challenge matches (29 this year so far, including 3 majors, plus one more major next week) in addition to being an RM who has the SC endorsement (and I was the RM for the Area 3 Steel Challenge Championship), plus being a member of Club 13 (I have three A classifications, one M, and the other nine are GM)-----I really enjoy shooting Steel Challenge. 

 

And at the moment, I think a better solution to "we aren't being represented" is to have the BoD acknowledge officially that the Areas and Sections also include the SC clubs in them, and that the ADs and SCs also need to be taking care of their SC clubs.

 

And if those people don't want to do it---well, that's why we vote.

 

My opinion.

This was very well written, thank you.  

 

For me, I'm fortunate enought that my AD shoots SC so I'm fairly certain he would represent those interests.  One thing that does keep coming up is the RO SC endorsement.  I am with the others that think there should be an SC-only RO course for those that don't want the full monty.  This is something that should be looked at really hard.