Is SCSA big enough to have its own BOD?

[Boomstick303]

16 minutes ago, zzt said:

I got constant arguments about hammer down.  Why they asked.  I cock the gun to show clear.  Then you want me to close the  bolt, pull the trigger and cock the gun again so I can flag.  It doesn't make sense.

 

I used to think this rule was stupid too, until I was staff at a Level 3 match.  I was the acting RO and the shooters PCC (an MPX) was acting up to the point it essentially became a bolt action PCC where he had rack the charging handle to fire every round.  Once the shooter finished is rather excruciating course of fire I gave the command to "If you are finished, unload and show clear".  The shooter and I was careful to make sure the chamber showed clear due to the way the PCC was acting up.  I then gave the next command of "If Clear, hammer down and flag".  BANG, the PCC went off.  I have no idea where the round came from but the PCC fired around after showing clear.  Unfortunately due to the Final command being given it was a DQ.  So for me, the unload procedure makes complete sense after that experience.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Boomstick303

[zzt]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

So for me, the unload procedure makes complete sense after that experience.

 

No argument.  That command has to be given no matter what.  I said most steel shooter shorten that to if finished.  They drop the 'you are' as unnecessary.

[RaylanGivens]

At one time Zack Jones was the 'Ambassador' for Steel Challenge...  He worked with the rules...  peak score adjustments...  and had the President's ear for Steel Challenge.

 

I've always considered him a sort of floating Area Director for Steel Challenge...  He used to post here quite often...  Haven't seen him recently...  Don't know if he is still involved.

 

 

[Nolan]

54 minutes ago, RaylanGivens said:

At one time Zack Jones was the 'Ambassador' for Steel Challenge...  He worked with the rules...  peak score adjustments...  and had the President's ear for Steel Challenge.

 

I've always considered him a sort of floating Area Director for Steel Challenge...  He used to post here quite often...  Haven't seen him recently...  Don't know if he is still involved.

 

 

 

I think he got tired of all the guys who don't shoot Steel Challenge telling him how Steel Challenge had to change to make it better.

 

Nolan

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, zzt said:

An example:  when the SCSA rule changed for PCC to match the USPSA rule, I got constant arguments about hammer down.  Why they asked.  I cock the gun to show clear.  Then you want me to close the  bolt, pull the trigger and cock the gun again so I can flag.  It doesn't make sense.

 

I disagree with this particular point. Maybe it's just where I am, but most steel challenge shooters shoot *some* uspsa, and many uspsa shooters shoot *some* steel challenge. With identical guns, I think the commands should be identical, for consistency and to reduce the chances of someone doing something dumb.

 

IMHO your other points (not quoted) are valid and worthy of further discussion, but most of them have nothing to do with having a separate BOD for steel. They are simply a case of steel shooters and MD's not understanding the rules.

 

 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, RaylanGivens said:

At one time Zack Jones was the 'Ambassador' for Steel Challenge...  He worked with the rules...  peak score adjustments...  and had the President's ear for Steel Challenge.

 

I've always considered him a sort of floating Area Director for Steel Challenge...  He used to post here quite often...  Haven't seen him recently...  Don't know if he is still involved.

 

 

Zack was at the last two world shoots and heavily involved, in april 2021 and october-ish 2020

[zzt]

11 hours ago, motosapiens said:

I think the commands should be identical, for consistency and to reduce the chances of someone doing something dumb.

 

I was writing what they said to me.   They thought it was stupid.  I agree PCC commands should be the same, especially when the 'flag' is a piece of string trimmer or a zip tie inserted down into the magwell.  Things got better.  Nobody argues with me now.

Edited September 2, 2021 by zzt

[Darqusoull13]

19 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

I think you're right, I don't shoot SC either so I'm sure you guys are correct so I'll stop expressing a opinion on it too, if SC shooters don't want to discuss things with USPSA shooters that's fine with me. I'll be sure to remember that in future elections for my AD. 

 

 

If you want to change things without having participated in even the slightest form to have the most casual understanding of the game you are going to be met with skepticism. 
 

19 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

I do have one last question.  Do all of these ADs shoot SC matches?  

The ones I spoke to, yes. 

[Hoops]

10 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

does anyone know the Area 4 Director and the state he lives in?

 

Also any Coordinators if Area 4 has any?

 

thanks

[Racinready300ex]

12 minutes ago, Darqusoull13 said:

If you want to change things without having participated in even the slightest form to have the most casual understanding of the game you are going to be met with skepticism. 
 

The ones I spoke to, yes. 

 

That's the part you're missing I think, see I don't want to change anything for SC, and if things need to be changed I wont know. But I do have a say in what changes for SC because I vote for my AD and what he thinks of SC doesn't really effect my vote. With that in mind, to me it would make complete sense to have a AD that represents SC that's primary interest is SC and is voted on by the guys who shoot SC. 

 

But, if SC shooters are fine letting us USPSA shooters call the shots who am I to argue. We can keep on keepin on. 

 

 

[bgary]

On 8/31/2021 at 4:58 PM, outerlimits said:

my take has been uspsa saw the SC as a cash cow of pure numbers, which is why it grabbed the organization. 

 

Not really.  We "grabbed" the sport because we wanted to expand the kinds of practical shooting activities the org could offer.  I mean, everyone knows "the USPSA game" but we think there are other ways to get people out burning gunpowder in safe, fair, fun matches.

 

SC was the first move in (what I hope is still) a long-term play - to broaden the array of practical shooting games available to clubs and members.  SC is a very different game, no power-factor or scoring zones beyond "hits", but it's still about accuracy at speed, and it creates huge benefits in other ways - it's easy to get new shooters involved, it's a game that less-able people can play on a level field, it has 22LR divisions, etc.

The thought is that "USPSA, Inc" is the umbrella org for a collection of different-but-still-practical shooting games.  Maybe we add a 22 "action" game next?  or an AR game?  or a pro-am kind of game?  or....?  The more we get people out burning powder, the better off we all are.  JMHO

 

SC has its own set of rules, but is under the USPSA Board for good reason - we want to grow the whole org, not just "the USPSA game".  At some point, maybe SC will have it's own Board, its own Area and Section leaders, etc.  Don't know.  But it'll still be part of our family of practical shooting sports, either way.

Bruce (SC fan since 1987...)

Edited September 2, 2021 by bgary

[Hoops]

4 minutes ago, bgary said:

 

Not really.  We "grabbed" the sport because we wanted to expand the kinds of practical shooting activities the org could offer.  I mean, everyone knows "the USPSA game" but we think there are other ways to get people out burning gunpowder in safe, fair, fun matches.

 

SC was the first move in (what I hope is still) a long-term play - to broaden the array of practical shooting games available to clubs and members.  SC is a very different game, no power-factor or scoring zones beyond "hits", but it's still about accuracy at speed, and it creates huge benefits in other ways - it's easy to get new shooters involved, it's a game that less-able people can play on a level field, it has 22LR divisions, etc.

The thought is that "USPSA, Inc" is the umbrella org for a collection of different-but-still-practical shooting games.  Maybe we add a 22 "action" game next?  or an AR game?  or a pro-am kind of game?  or....?  The more we get people out burning powder, the better off we all are.  JMHO

 

SC has its own set of rules, but is under the USPSA Board for good reason - we want to grow the whole org, not just "the USPSA game".  At some point, maybe SC will have it's own Board, its own Area and Section leaders, etc.  Don't know.  But it'll still be part of our family of practical shooting sports, either way.

Bruce (SC fan since 1987...)

Forgive me if I don't recognize your name or if you are part of USPSA.org.  Your comments give the impression you are part of the organization.  Are you?

 

Thank you

 

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, Hoops said:

Forgive me if I don't recognize your name or if you are part of USPSA.org.  Your comments give the impression you are part of the organization.  Are you?

 

Thank you

 

He is an AD

[bgary]

22 minutes ago, Hoops said:

Forgive me if I don't recognize your name or if you are part of USPSA.org.  Your comments give the impression you are part of the organization.  Are you?

 

No worries.  Yes, I'm part of the USPSA Board (Area-1, representing Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Washington and Alaska...)

 

And as an aside, we had an Area-1 Steel Challenge match scheduled for Salt Lake City in July, and ended up having to cancel it for lack of entries.  Would love any insights on what we did wrong and how we can fix it.  The 2022 Area-1 Steel Challenge will be in Missoula, which hosted the 2020 match, but I'm very interested in moving it around the Area to make it accessible to more members....

 

Bruce

[broadside72]

I shoot both but more USPSA than SC. Only 1 SC match a month versus 3-4 USPSA a month. I am a CRO with SC endorsement. 

 

I like that the common divisions have common equipment rules and that the official range commands and core safety rules are identical. However there are inconsistencies in the rules but those are getting fewer and fewer (lets ignore the inconsistencies within the individual rule books for now). Having consistency in the common areas makes things so much easier

I think that the lack of SC endorsed ROs is an issue and even the low number of ROs in general participating in local SC matches is a big issue as well. Not knowing the range commands and the minor adaptations for rimfire has been an issue but I am used to it and will correct them when I can. But at least they are out there trying or I'd never get to shoot or get a break as I'd always be on the timer.  I agree with the poster above about maybe having a SC specific RO certification/class.

I think SC is running fairly well given is second tier position with the overall org. Not sure if SC needs it's own BOD, but I don't follow the BOD agendas much at all.  

[zzt]

26 minutes ago, bgary said:

And as an aside, we had an Area-1 Steel Challenge match scheduled for Salt Lake City in July, and ended up having to cancel it for lack of entries.  Would love any insights on what we did wrong and how we can fix it. 

 

It may be you did nothing wrong.  It has been a tough year ammo/primer/powder shortage wise.  Take a look at the East Coast Steel Challenge Series.  In prior years if you had not registered and paid at least a month ahead you did not get a spot.  This year they cancelled all of the afternoon shoots, and the morning shoots ran with some completely empty squads.

 

Besides the half filled squads, a lot of shooters were only shooting one gun.  That didn't use to be the case.  At the one club I shoot at that still has consistently full matches, there are significant changes.  Some centerfire shooters switched Divisions only because they had loaded ammo for that Div.  A whole bunch of shooters now shoot only rimfire.  They can get ammo for that, but primers and centerfire ammo are scarce.  Geez, one dealer received his shipment of 9mm Atlanta Arms Select remanufactured ammo and his price was $380/case 1000.

 

If I was going to shoot an Area SC Championship and I was not able, or allowed, to shoot four guns I would simply skip it.  I'm not one to forgo local matches just to save ammo for one big Area match.  Local matches are fun and a LOT easier to get to.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, bgary said:

And as an aside, we had an Area-1 Steel Challenge match scheduled for Salt Lake City in July, and ended up having to cancel it for lack of entries.  Would love any insights on what we did wrong and how we can fix it. 

 

i think probably too late in the year (lots of competition with big uspsa matches), and also it got on the schedule late and wasn't really promoted or advertised until it was getting close. Probably the ammo thing had something to do with it as well.  Mrs Moto was entered, but right from the start she was wondering if it was really going to happen because she didn't see any promotion of it or buzz about it. 

 

We both really liked Missoula and will almost certainly be there next year. Nice range, nice area with good mtn biking, and we can stop in Stanley for a mini-vacay on the way to/from.

Edited September 2, 2021 by motosapiens

[Darqusoull13]

1 hour ago, bgary said:

 

No worries.  Yes, I'm part of the USPSA Board (Area-1, representing Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Washington and Alaska...)

 

And as an aside, we had an Area-1 Steel Challenge match scheduled for Salt Lake City in July, and ended up having to cancel it for lack of entries.  Would love any insights on what we did wrong and how we can fix it.  The 2022 Area-1 Steel Challenge will be in Missoula, which hosted the 2020 match, but I'm very interested in moving it around the Area to make it accessible to more members....

 

Bruce

Bruce, 

The only way we were able to pull off A4 with 300+ entries in July in Texas was having the support of CCI and Federal with ammo being made available on site for purchase. Next year with the possibility of ammo being far more accessible we will shoot for 400 entries. 

I heard a lot of folks indicate they couldn't shoot A1 because their ammo supplies were so low so it may not be anything y'all could have controlled. 

I will say having the match "travel" may not be the best idea to increase numbers. Kurt and Jeff both have matches that do well because folks know exactly what they are getting; well run, fun, exciting events. At A4 we pulled a lot of ideas from all sorts of matches we shot over the years and we plan on doing even more next year. 

Hit me up anytime if you want to chat. 

 

[bgary]

5 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

i think probably too late in the year (lots of competition with big uspsa matches), and also it got on the schedule late and wasn't really promoted or advertised until it was getting close.

 

Yeah.  We picked dates that didn't have a conflict with any major USPSA matches, or with any Tier-2 or Tier-3 SC matches (well, at least not within 1000 miles.  I think there was a Tier-3 in Florida that same weekend...).  We were told there was a conflict with a scholastic SC match, but never saw it on the SCSA calendar, so not sure if we missed something.

We "thought" it was a sweet-spot on the calendar, as well as being a central spot (less than 12 hours of driving from pretty much anywhere in Area-1 except Alaska), and SLC has a ton of stuff to do in the Area.  At present, we're planning to give SLC another shot at it in the summer of 2023.  Consider this the beginning of the promotion!!! 

As far as getting the word out, fair point.  We promoted it on Facebook and Practiscore, but clearly that wasn't enough to get the word to the right eyeballs.  Open to ideas about what we can do better.

 

Bruce

[mchapman]

3 hours ago, bgary said:

 

No worries.  Yes, I'm part of the USPSA Board (Area-1, representing Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Washington and Alaska...)

 

And as an aside, we had an Area-1 Steel Challenge match scheduled for Salt Lake City in July, and ended up having to cancel it for lack of entries.  Would love any insights on what we did wrong and how we can fix it.  The 2022 Area-1 Steel Challenge will be in Missoula, which hosted the 2020 match, but I'm very interested in moving it around the Area to make it accessible to more members....

 

Bruce

Bruce, forgive me if I'm wrong or I read or misunderstood how the schedules were laid out , or perhaps this is the way all of the L2 and L3 matches are run, but for myself, I did not care for the shoot half the match one day and the 2nd half the next. I would have preferred to shoot two guns and complete the match all on the same day and come back the next day with two more and do the same thing, but that's just me.

[zzt]

22 minutes ago, mchapman said:

I would have preferred to shoot two guns and complete the match all on the same day and come back the next day with two more and do the same thing, but that's just me.

 

Same with me.  There is no way on earth I would drive 12 hours to shoot one gun a day.  Heck, I wouldn't drive one hour to shoot one gun.

[RaylanGivens]

On 9/1/2021 at 10:21 PM, motosapiens said:

Zack was at the last two world shoots and heavily involved, in april 2021 and october-ish 2020

 

Glad to hear that...  Zack usually comes to our yearly level II SC match, but couldn't make it this year...  Glad he is still involved...  He does a lot of good for SC.

[Hoops]

20 hours ago, bgary said:

 

No worries.  Yes, I'm part of the USPSA Board (Area-1, representing Nevada, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Oregon, Washington and Alaska...)

 

And as an aside, we had an Area-1 Steel Challenge match scheduled for Salt Lake City in July, and ended up having to cancel it for lack of entries.  Would love any insights on what we did wrong and how we can fix it.  The 2022 Area-1 Steel Challenge will be in Missoula, which hosted the 2020 match, but I'm very interested in moving it around the Area to make it accessible to more members....

 

Bruce

Bruce,

 

It's been interesting to read these posts regarding SCSA BOD pros/cons.  It prompted me to spend some time researching both USPSA and SCSA website and reading the bylaws.  

 

As I see it, Area Directors are non-paid salary positions with voting rights along with the BOD.  The initial decription for AD's in the bylaws

are:

 

11.1 Area Director:

An Area Director and a Director as established in Article 5, except for the President, are one and the same. The

Area Director shall

i.) assist the Section Coordinators within his Area in whatever way possible to promote the corporation and

its goals,

ii.) promote the corporation's goals and actively solicit participation from individuals, shooting organizations

and industry.

 

Section Coordinators are described as:

12.4 Duties of Section Coordinator:

The Section Coordinator is responsible for insuring that every activity within the Section represents the best traditions and standards of USPSA. The Section Coordinator supports the development of new shooters and new clubs by providing information, support, and guidance.

 

Are non-paid, non-voting Section Coordinator's to be appointed to each State within the Area to help the AD cover the wide expanse of each Area (multiple states?).  There is no information I could find on Section Coordinators in either USPSA or SCSA website links.

 

Back to this poll and adding a separate BOD for SCSA.  As an Area Director, what are your thoughts on the idea of having one Area MD each for USPSA and SCSA?  Representation from each Area would be on equal standing for USPSA and SCSA for input to USPSA.org and equal standing in number of votes.  No salary so no additional cost to USPSA.org.

 

Thank you.....

 

 

 

[AR_James]

On 9/2/2021 at 10:17 AM, Hoops said:

does anyone know the Area 4 Director and the state he lives in?

 

Also any Coordinators if Area 4 has any?

 

thanks

 

The Area 4 Director is Chad Stanton (Area4@uspsa.org).  

 

 

[Hoops]

6 minutes ago, AR_James said:

 

The Area 4 Director is Chad Stanton (Area4@uspsa.org).  

 

 

Tried that a few days ago.  Nothing so far.

 

Thank you