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Decocker models


Stafford
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Had a new shooter in our squad this weekend. He was using a CZ SP01 Tactical in CO. At make ready he decocked and the hammer dropped into half cock or almost all the way down. RO stopped him and said the hammer has to be all the way down. Shooter was confused as he had never dropped the hammer any other way than by using the decocker.  A couple of us in the squad who shoot non deccocker CZ's noted that we thought decocking into half cock was legal for decocker models, but that non decocker models were required to go all the way down manually. Although no one was 100% certain of the ruling. 

 

In any event, someone was going to check the ruling, but he continued to shoot the rest of the match by deccocking. At the end of the day, I think everyone forgot to check on the ruling. What is the ruling on decocker models for CO or Production?

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D7 special conditions: 

If a decocking lever is installed and used, the term fully decocked is the position where the hammer rests

once the decocking lever has been used.

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You were correct all along.

D4 and D7

Special conditions:

1.

Only Double Action, Double Action/Single Action, and Safe Action/Striker Fired

hand

guns are allowed, and must be on the approved list. When in the ready conditions

as specified under

8.1

, a gun with an external hammer must be

hammer down. A

hammer is considered to be in the "hammer down" position when the hammer is placed

there by pulling the trigger while manually lowering the hammer (manually decocking)

or by activating the decocking lever if present. Manually decocking to

the half

-

cocked

position is not allowed and will result in the competitor being moved to Open division

Edited by Sarge
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when i come upon an issue like this at a match, I take the 60 seconds to look up the rule and be certain.

 

I shoot cz's tho, so I wouldn't have to look that one up. if you have a decocker, use it. If you don't, for now you must still manually lower the hammer all the way, so it may go off if you drop the gun on the hammer.

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45 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

when i come upon an issue like this at a match, I take the 60 seconds to look up the rule and be certain.

 

I shoot cz's tho, so I wouldn't have to look that one up. if you have a decocker, use it. If you don't, for now you must still manually lower the hammer all the way, so it may go off if you drop the gun on the hammer.

Only if you have modified your gun in unsafe ways to get a slightly lighter DA trigger pull because you mistakenly think it makes a real difference in your stage scores. 

 

 

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That RO was also asking you to do something against the rules that would result in your DQ as well

 

Quote

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading, reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer


You have a decocking lever so the exception does not apply to you.

Edited by broadside72
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Thanks for this. I shot an SP 01 decocker model and have been told in the past and just this past Sunday to fully rest the hammer by pulling the trigger as using the decocker was not good enough. Will pass info along the next time it occurs.

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36 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

That RO was also asking you to do something against the rules that would result in your DQ as well

 


You have a decocking lever so the exception does not apply to you.

 

Would you really DQ someone for lowering the hammer without using the decocker?

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7 minutes ago, Bagellord said:

 

Would you really DQ someone for lowering the hammer without using the decocker?

it is definitely a DQ, but since there is some confusion and misinformation on the topic, and it is possible that an actual RO told the person they could do it, I would probably set the record straight first, and make sure the actual rule was well understood.

 

certainly most sensible people would rather just use the decocker because it makes a noticeable difference in the length and weight of the first trigger pull.

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A good example of why to not say anything if you don't know the rules. I'd never consider not using the decocker but if I was new and a RO told me that was the rule why wouldn't I believe him? And then I'd likely be pissed with that RO when I go to a major and get DQ'd. 

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1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

A good example of why to not say anything if you don't know the rules. I'd never consider not using the decocker but if I was new and a RO told me that was the rule why wouldn't I believe him? And then I'd likely be pissed with that RO when I go to a major and get DQ'd. 

 

I agree that it would make sense to a really new shooter to do as the RO says.  But at some point people need to take responsibility for understanding the rules of the game.

 

People don't need to memorize the entire rulebook, but there are certain things they should know cold.  Starting with things that will get them DQ'd and following right along the equipment and firearm condition rules for the division the play in.

 

Anyone who pays money to go to a level II or higher match without understanding the rules they'll be expected to follow is an idiot and has no room to complain if he or she does something that will get them DQ'd/bumped to open/shoot for no score but was allowed to slide at local matches.  By that point one should know better.

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Just now, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I agree that it would make sense to a really new shooter to do as the RO says.  But at some point people need to take responsibility for understanding the rules of the game.

 

People don't need to memorize the entire rulebook, but there are certain things they should know cold.  Starting with things that will get them DQ'd and following right along the equipment and firearm condition rules for the division the play in.

 

Anyone who pays money to go to a level II or higher match without understanding the rules they'll be expected to follow is an idiot and has no room to complain if he or she does something that will get them DQ'd/bumped to open/shoot for no score but was allowed to slide at local matches.  By that point one should know better.

 

I agree with that too. But I bet it happens a lot. I mean if someone who seems to know what they're talking about tells you something with confidence why would you question it. 

 

Personally even just switching divisions I go double check the rules that apply. In fact my first major in PCC is this weekend I should go double check everything related to PCC just to make sure I don't forget anything. 

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Just now, Racinready300ex said:

 

I mean if someone who seems to know what they're talking about tells you something with confidence why would you question it. 

 

I wouldn't question him if I knew he was wrong.  I would refuse to do what I'm being told to do and I would correct him.

 

Knowledge is power.  Literally.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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2 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I wouldn't question him if I knew he was wrong.  I would refuse to do what I'm being told to do and I would correct him.

 

Knowledge is power.  Literally.

 

Well yeah if I know he's wrong I'm going to speak up too. I was still thinking more from a new shooter perspective. When I started I think my 2nd match was a sectional. I defiantly didn't know all the rules at that point and if someone had told me something wrong like this it probably would of bit me. I still don't know all the rules but I can generally stay out of trouble lol. 

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40 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Yes

The rule (10.5.9) specifically calls out loading, reloading, and unloading. Definitions copy pasted below (unloading not relevant to this discussion). At the time you lower the hammer, you are not loading or reloading the gun.

 

Loading: 

The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted, firearm is in battery (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire), and the competitor’s hand has been removed from the magazine or other loading device (except as may occur during establishing a normal grip on the firearm)

 

Reloading: 

Revolver -Empty the cylinder, insert new ammunition, and close the cylinder or loading gate.  Self-loader -Remove magazine, insert a different magazine, and return the firearm to battery (slide closed), and the competitor’s hand removed from the magazine.  For the purposes of this definition, a magazine/speed-loading device retrieved from the range floor is considered a new source of ammunition.

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1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

Personally even just switching divisions I go double check the rules that apply. In fact my first major in PCC is this weekend I should go double check everything related to PCC just to make sure I don't forget anything. 

Read the rules on handling PCCs at the berm away from the safe area..... Those get a lot of people lately

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When I  first shot USPSA in production CZs were not very common. I'd read online about manually lowering the hammer by pressing the trigger. Standard CZ75B. I'd also read that shooters had trouble at local matches with ROs not being familiar with the procedure. 

I called up the top guy at the local club and explained I was coming there to shoot production with my CZ and the requirement for the starting position. He hadn't seen it a lot but said ok. Shot a couple of stages, no problem. 3rd stage, 2 strings. Not sure if the RO had run me on the previous stages. Made ready and shot the first string but as I made ready for the second string the RO said, Whoa what are you doing? He hadn't  noticed on the first string and I explained but he was unfamiliar with the Da/Sa lowering the hammer. Range master came over and we got it squared away. No problems after that match and CZs are everywhere now.

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1 hour ago, Bagellord said:

The rule (10.5.9) specifically calls out loading, reloading, and unloading. Definitions copy pasted below (unloading not relevant to this discussion). At the time you lower the hammer, you are not loading or reloading the gun.

 

this appears to be a valid point. it's a little deceiving because they put the exception in there, but the exception doesn't actually happen during loading, it happens *after* loading. 

 

When you think about it, you can certainly have your finger in the trigger guard during make ready when you are not loading, and people do it all the time to drop the hammer on a sight picture on a popper, for example.

Edited by motosapiens
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2 hours ago, Bagellord said:

The rule (10.5.9) specifically calls out loading, reloading, and unloading. Definitions copy pasted below (unloading not relevant to this discussion). At the time you lower the hammer, you are not loading or reloading the gun.

 

Loading: 

The insertion of ammunition into a firearm. Loading is completed when ammunition is inserted, firearm is in battery (slide forward or cylinder closed and ready to fire), and the competitor’s hand has been removed from the magazine or other loading device (except as may occur during establishing a normal grip on the firearm)

 

Reloading: 

Revolver -Empty the cylinder, insert new ammunition, and close the cylinder or loading gate.  Self-loader -Remove magazine, insert a different magazine, and return the firearm to battery (slide closed), and the competitor’s hand removed from the magazine.  For the purposes of this definition, a magazine/speed-loading device retrieved from the range floor is considered a new source of ammunition.

 

Why are you ignoring the specific exception mentioned in 10.5.9? 

 

Don't answer, I know.  People love to selectively read, interpret, and apply rules to their convenience.

 

The fact that sticking your finger inside the trigger guard to lower the hammer of a non-decocker pistol at make ready is specifically stated as an exception to a DQ means that doing so with a pistol that has a decocker IS a violation of 10.5.9.  Otherwise there would be no reason for the specific, stated, exception.

 

You can take your chances at arbitration.

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14 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

The fact that sticking your finger inside the trigger guard to lower the hammer of a non-decocker pistol at make ready is specifically stated as an exception to a DQ means that doing so with a pistol that has a decocker IS a violation of 10.5.9.  Otherwise there would be no reason for the specific, stated, exception.

 

does this also apply to taking sight pictures, and dropping the hammer on a sight picture at make ready? Because the majority of shooters put their finger inside the trigger guard during make ready at some point, yet none of them get dq'd. Can you explain why?

 

Certainly the fact that there is an 'exception' doesn't change the meaning of the words to which the exception refers. It seems pretty clear that putting the finger in the trigger guard is perfectly ok as long as it doesn't happen while doing other particular things.

 

I wonder if perhaps that 'exception' dates from before the definition of loading was clarified.

 

Edited by motosapiens
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1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

does this also apply to taking sight pictures, and dropping the hammer on a sight picture at make ready? Because the majority of shooters put their finger inside the trigger guard during make ready at some point, yet none of them get dq'd. Can you explain why?

 

Certainly the fact that there is an 'exception' doesn't change the meaning of the words to which the exception refers. It seems pretty clear that putting the finger in the trigger guard is perfectly ok as long as it doesn't happen while doing other particular things.

 

I wonder if perhaps that 'exception' dates from before the definition of loading was clarified.

 

I know the verbiage there is old and that IPSC has the same verbiage and dryfiring at make ready is not a thing there. I'm not really sure where our extended make ready dryfire routines started but I do remember when I started shooting people asked permission before taking sight pictures at make ready, so I think it likely just evolved over time without the rules ever being updated to actually reflect it.  

 

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