A couple rule questions

[mpmo]

A couple questions.  I'm not an RO, but assume that responsibility a lot at my local matches and want to make sure I'm doing things right, and get better at doing it altogether.  Planning on doing an RO course next year.

 

1.Seems like from the rule book, the commands after Unload, show clear are the same for self loading pistols even if it is rimfire.  But then it says that hammers do not have to be dropped if it's rimfire (8.3.8.2). 

           -So, do I issue the command and it's just ignored based on what the competitor wants to do? 

           -Does the competitor need to put the safety on if they are not dropping the hammer?

           -Is this any different if they are bagging vs. holstering?

           -If they are bagging, do I still issue the 'holster' command for consistency?

 

 

2.Per rule 8.3.2: For each subsequent string after the first, the Range Officer shall proceed from this command, once the competitor has assumed the start position.  I understand this to mean that I should issue an 'Are you ready?' at the beginning of each string.  Correct?

 

 

[zzt]

1.  - you do not issue a hammer down command for rimfire.

    -  no.

    - no.

    - the correct command is holster for all pistols, even though rimfire pistols are not carried in a holster.  That being said, most ROs will say bag, or holster or               bag.  

 

2.  yes.

[Mcfoto]

What they teach ROs is to give the commands EXACTLY as written. So everyone gets “hammer down” even if they have no hammer. Striker fired still complies by pulling the trigger in effect hammer down. No, engaging the safety is not an acceptable substitute for hammer down. All competitors must hammer down before holstering at the end of course of fire. Yes, if they are bagging, you can substitute “bag” but if you don’t, they should know what you want.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Mcfoto

[zzt]

You do not say hammer down for rimfire pistols (or rifles) in SCSA.  Here is the SCSA specific command for rimfire pistol:  8.3.8.2 Rimfire pistol – show clear and holster or case. (Trigger need not be pulled.)

 

While I'm at it, here is the command for rimfire rifles:  8.3.8.3 Rimfire Rifle – show clear, flag, and case. (Trigger need not be pulled.) Note: The bolt must be closed on a chamber flag.

Edited August 22, 2021 by zzt

[George Jones]

The commands remain as stated in the rulebook, regardless of caliber.

Rimfire is not required to pull the trigger (by rule - due to potential harm on the firing pin on some models).  However, most shooters will manually release the hammer so as not to leave it cocked. 

The safety is not required to be applied (most guns with hammer down will not allow the safety to be applied anyway). but the command remains the same.

The "holster" command is correct even if the shooter is using a bag/case for a rimfire.

To clarify the previous post:

Note that the subs to 8.3 are shooter actions, not range commands.

[zzt]

George, this is exactly what bothers me about SCSA rules complying with USPSA.  I'll grant you there is only one accurate way to give that command in USPSA.  In SCSA why on earth would you give a command that will not be followed.  It makes no sense.  Most 22 pistols do not have an external hammer, so hammer down makes no sense.  You cannot 'drop the hammer' without pulling the trigger, and you are not required to do so.  You have already carved out one exemption.  Do another so you are not issuing a non-sensical command. 

[George Jones]

Striker fired guns (common in SCSA) don't have a hammer either, but that's not the point.  I do appreciate your opinion, but I do think commonality of commands has value for ROs and competitors who participate in both disciplines.

The commands are what they are.  Changing the rules only happens via adoption by the BOD.  All I can do, and I'm expected to do it, is to teach and explain the commands as they are today.  When they change (and they have on occasion) I have to adapt, whether I like them or not.  

The OP asked a legitimate question which was (mostly) answered correctly.  This forum is valuable in that regard.

[mpmo]

I appreciate the answers as much as I do the discussion!  Thanks all.

 

 

[mpmo]

Just to confirm, now from the shooters end.  As an RFPO and RFPI shooter, at no time do I ever need to engage the safety, whether bagged or holstered.  

 

[George Jones]

Holstered RFPO/I is not common and would only be on arrival to the stage and departure after "Range is Clear!".

If (as unlikely as it would be) you were to holster one of those after loading it and with a cocked hammer/striker, the external safety (If present) must be engaged.  Failing to do so would result in a DQ under Rule 10.3.9

HTH

[twodownzero]

2 hours ago, George Jones said:

Holstered RFPO/I is not common and would only be on arrival to the stage and departure after "Range is Clear!".

If (as unlikely as it would be) you were to holster one of those after loading it and with a cocked hammer/striker, the external safety (If present) must be engaged.  Failing to do so would result in a DQ under Rule 10.3.9

HTH

 

You need to review Rule 10.3.9 again.  It only applies to "loaded" handguns.

[George Jones]

Reading again is a good thing.

"If (as unlikely as it would be) you were to holster one of those after loading it and with a cocked hammer/striker, the external safety (If present) must be engaged.  Failing to do so would result in a DQ under Rule 10.3.9"

[bravobravo]

If we were keeping score, I think what would make the score

George Jones - 1,762

vs 

All other USPSA rules experts - 0

[George Jones]

You gave me way too much credit.  I have less than 900 posts.

[twodownzero]

On 8/23/2021 at 1:36 PM, George Jones said:

Reading again is a good thing.

"If (as unlikely as it would be) you were to holster one of those after loading it and with a cocked hammer/striker, the external safety (If present) must be engaged.  Failing to do so would result in a DQ under Rule 10.3.9"

Maybe if "after loading it" and "not subsequently unloading it before holstering, and doing so with the safety not engaged."  Which makes no sense of course, since there is no reason to holster the gun after loading it (stages shot from low ready) and if one were to shoot the stage and holster the loaded gun without showing clear, there's a great number of reasons why that would be problematic, not the least of which would be having ignored basically all the RO's range commands to ever reach that point.

 

Holstering any gun in an unsafe condition is going to get the person a DQ.  If that's all you meant, that's what you should have said.  The same would go for holstering a loaded revolver with the hammer cocked, or any other number of unsafe conditions in which one's gun handling would get them a DQ.  There's nothing unique about using a .22 with a magazine safety here.

 

That said, I took the  mag safety out of my 22 and I pull the trigger before I holster it, because I don't spend time losing sleep over dryfiring it.

[mpmo]

I have never seen anyone at a match actively draw a .22 from the holster, but I can for sure imagine it.  We have had people draw from concealment at matches for practice.  If ammo got really bad, I could see some competitors start doing this for practice.  Thank you for the example George.  

 

 

 

[hornetx40]

I have seen shooters draw from a holster when shooting a rimfire pistol. This isn't actually legal because the RO isn't supposed to start a shooter unless they have assumed the proper start position which is low ready. ......