Retaining a magazine during a tac reload

[matteekay]

We had a new shooter today who performed a tac reload on a stage. He finished the stage with the magazine he'd taken out still in his hand. My instinct is that the mag should be returned to a pouch or his pockets prior to completing the stage to avoid a PE but I'm having a hard time finding the specific rule that supports it. The closest I can find is: 

 

3.4.7 Dropping a loaded magazine or speed loader/moon clip does not incur a penalty as long as the shooter retrieves and properly stows the loaded magazine or speed loader/moon clip prior to the firing of the last shot in the string of fire.

 

I can't find a definition of "properly stows" anywhere in the rules. Can someone point me in the right direction for what is and isn't legal in this case?

[RePete]

In the hand is not properly stowing, and will/should incur a PE.

 

I stated to IDPA ( a member of the tiger team) at the start of the 2015 rulebook that there should be a definitions section and the answer was NO F'ING WAY!

[ddc]

He didn't drop the magazine. He didn't retrieve it. He kept control over it. How does 3.4.7 apply?

[RePete]

Not stowed but retained, there is a difference.

[matteekay]

2 hours ago, RePete said:

Not stowed but retained, there is a difference.

 

Is there? Without a clear definition I'm not sure how you make that argument.

 

Edit: Universal "you", not "you"-you. Voicing my frustrations with the current rulebook.

Edited August 15, 2021 by matteekay

[matteekay]

2 hours ago, ddc said:

He didn't drop the magazine. He didn't retrieve it. He kept control over it. How does 3.4.7 apply?

 

That's a good point. 3.4.7 specifically addresses "dropping" a loaded device with ammunition. It's like the tac reload has been erased if you read all of 3.4.

[RangerTrace]

This is the kinda thing that gives USPSA shooters a reason to talk smack about IDPA shooters.  And I consider myself more of an IDPA shooter these days.  Keeping the magazine in his hand doesn't give him any sort of advantage, so why "try" to find a reason to penalize him?  He was likely at a disadvantage shooting with the magazine in his hand, right?

[ddc]

52 minutes ago, matteekay said:

 

That's a good point. 3.4.7 specifically addresses "dropping" a loaded device with ammunition. It's like the tac reload has been erased if you read all of 3.4.

 

When I first read the rule I interpreted "dropping" to mean the magazine was dropped in the sense that I dropped my dinner plate on the ground, dropped by mistake.

 

After thinking back on similar conversations I believe the rule is referring to "dropping" in the sense that you are intentionally releasing the mag from the gun as necessary to perform a reload.

 

Assuming that is true then the issue comes down to what "stowed" means. Apparently that means it needs to be someplace on your person other than being in your hand.

 

Sorry for the confusion; I guess its been a while since I've worried about the finer points of the IDPA rulebook.

 

 

[matteekay]

3 hours ago, RangerTrace said:

This is the kinda thing that gives USPSA shooters a reason to talk smack about IDPA shooters.  And I consider myself more of an IDPA shooter these days.  Keeping the magazine in his hand doesn't give him any sort of advantage, so why "try" to find a reason to penalize him?  He was likely at a disadvantage shooting with the magazine in his hand, right?

 

I agree 100%, and to clarify - no one was trying to penalize him (nor was he penalized). I literally said to him "You're good - I just want to double check the rule on that later" and here we are.

 

Just trying to be a good SO. Too many do things from memory and are often either quoting the old rulebook or are just completely wrong.

[ddc]

So  a similar question was asked over on the IDPA forum. The response, by a known rules guy but not from HQ in any sense, was as follows:

 

"What’s going on is two separate rules, for different situations, being confused.

If a “loaded” magazine is dropped there is no PE as long as it is picked up AND STOWED BEFORE the last shot is fired. Holding it in your hand is NOT stowed. Dropping a loaded mag normally happens during a fumbled reload or while running around the stage.

Second rule is that if you perform a NON EMPTY GUN reload, the removed mag must not be left behind. There is NO requirement for the removed mag to be stowed. Carrying it in your hand is fine as long as that mag is not later reused which would be considered “staging”.

So, a dropped “loaded” mag must be stowed before the LAST shot but a “removed” mag during a tac reload must not be left behind, and can be held in the hand as long as it is not reused later in the stage."
 

[SGT_Schultz]

45 minutes ago, ddc said:

So  a similar question was asked over on the IDPA forum. The response, by a known rules guy but not from HQ in any sense, was as follows:

 

"What’s going on is two separate rules, for different situations, being confused.

If a “loaded” magazine is dropped there is no PE as long as it is picked up AND STOWED BEFORE the last shot is fired. Holding it in your hand is NOT stowed. Dropping a loaded mag normally happens during a fumbled reload or while running around the stage.

Second rule is that if you perform a NON EMPTY GUN reload, the removed mag must not be left behind. There is NO requirement for the removed mag to be stowed. Carrying it in your hand is fine as long as that mag is not later reused which would be considered “staging”.

So, a dropped “loaded” mag must be stowed before the LAST shot but a “removed” mag during a tac reload must not be left behind, and can be held in the hand as long as it is not reused later in the stage."
 

 

That old dude "Jay"?

 

LOL

[SGT_Schultz]

9 hours ago, RePete said:

I stated to IDPA ( a member of the tiger team) at the start of the 2015 rulebook that there should be a definitions section and the answer was NO F'ING WAY!

 

It's almost like they WANT to be forever known as the bush league

[matteekay]

1 hour ago, ddc said:

So  a similar question was asked over on the IDPA forum. The response, by a known rules guy but not from HQ in any sense, was as follows:

 

"What’s going on is two separate rules, for different situations, being confused.

If a “loaded” magazine is dropped there is no PE as long as it is picked up AND STOWED BEFORE the last shot is fired. Holding it in your hand is NOT stowed. Dropping a loaded mag normally happens during a fumbled reload or while running around the stage.

Second rule is that if you perform a NON EMPTY GUN reload, the removed mag must not be left behind. There is NO requirement for the removed mag to be stowed. Carrying it in your hand is fine as long as that mag is not later reused which would be considered “staging”.

So, a dropped “loaded” mag must be stowed before the LAST shot but a “removed” mag during a tac reload must not be left behind, and can be held in the hand as long as it is not reused later in the stage."
 

 

Appreciate the reply. What's bugging me is I don't think this individual could quote a rule in the current rulebook to support the latter assessment as I don't think one exists.

[Clint007]

3.4.6 is that rule.   As long as they don’t use it later it’s not staging. 
 

the more I learn about the rules and administer matches the more I realize the rule book is amateurishly written. There are many holes and omissions that could have been corrected over the years but were not.
 

Many of the terms are not defined. So folks argue endlessly about the practical definitions of exposed, stow, left behind, arms (but not hands!) hanging naturally at sides, may interrupt, etc etc. 

different clubs have adopted parochial  interpretations of these and are then shocked and scandalized when another region has a different interpretation, because there’s almost never an official globally communicated clarification from HQ.

[matteekay]

44 minutes ago, Clint007 said:

3.4.6 is that rule.   As long as they don’t use it later it’s not staging. 
 

the more I learn about the rules and administer matches the more I realize the rule book is amateurishly written. There are many holes and omissions that could have been corrected over the years but were not.
 

Many of the terms are not defined. So folks argue endlessly about the practical definitions of exposed, stow, left behind, arms (but not hands!) hanging naturally at sides, may interrupt, etc etc. 

different clubs have adopted parochial  interpretations of these and are then shocked and scandalized when another region has a different interpretation, because there’s almost never an official globally communicated clarification from HQ.

 

I think you summed that up well. A lot of things could be made unambiguous by adding a simple definition (or about five words of clarification) but we're left to do it on our own in many cases.

[ddc]

18 hours ago, Clint007 said:

3.4.6 is that rule.   As long as they don’t use it later it’s not staging. 
 

the more I learn about the rules and administer matches the more I realize the rule book is amateurishly written. There are many holes and omissions that could have been corrected over the years but were not.
 

Many of the terms are not defined. So folks argue endlessly about the practical definitions of exposed, stow, left behind, arms (but not hands!) hanging naturally at sides, may interrupt, etc etc. 

different clubs have adopted parochial  interpretations of these and are then shocked and scandalized when another region has a different interpretation, because there’s almost never an official globally communicated clarification from HQ.

 

That's about it. Makes it impossible to take it seriously.

 

I keep checking back to see if maybe things have changed but of course they haven't.

[SergeRingo]

 

 

The Rule specifically requires properly quote "STOWS" unquote

 

My view is its a PE considering the meaning of STOW in the dictionary 

 

stow

/stəʊ/

 

verb

1. pack or store (an object) carefully and neatly in a particular place.

   "Barney began stowing her luggage into the boot"

[matteekay]

35 minutes ago, SergeRingo said:

 

 

The Rule specifically requires properly quote "STOWS" unquote

 

My view is its a PE considering the meaning of STOW in the dictionary 

 

stow

/stəʊ/

 

verb

1. pack or store (an object) carefully and neatly in a particular place.

   "Barney began stowing her luggage into the boot"

 

Covered above, but the "stow" rule is for dropped, loaded magazines (3.4.7) and doesn't refer explicitly to reloads.

 

Dropping a loaded magazine or speed loader/moon clip does not incur a penalty as long as the shooter retrieves and properly stows the loaded magazine or speed loader/moon clip prior to the firing of the last shot in the string of fire.

 

 

The reload rule is 3.4.6 and doesn't include any language about "stowing". It simply states "no magazine or loose rounds can be left behind."

 

Shooters may not perform a reload which results in a magazine (or loose rounds) being left behind after there was an unfired cartridge in the chamber, magazine, or cylinder at the time the reload was initiated. When done intentionally, this is commonly known as a “speed reload”, but doing this unintentionally is still illegal and will result in a Procedural Error penalty being issued.

 

 

Two separate rules. In the situation I presented, the shooter never dropped a magazine.

Edited September 19, 2021 by matteekay

[Szczinator]

Ok, ok, ok.... Ok,   I had this happen to me.  I did a tactical reload, retained the mag in my left hand (to save time) and continued to complete the course of fire.

the SO, PE,d me.  I asked him to explain why.   He showed me the IDPA rules on his phone and found a rule that justified his decision.

 

i did not recall reading that rule when I was trying to learn the rules in the 2017 rule book.

I later asked the CSO who has been in IDPA since it's inception and he told me that rule has gone away.  They simply took it out.  

I had Not committed a PE.

 

My guess is the SO had not updated the rules on his phone.

 

i like the IDPA rules.  They're simple, but make you think.  How many people don't use their brains anymore and expect others to do it for them. 

Also the rules are minimized 41 pages,  still a lot.   ICORE is only 20 Pages.  USPSA is like a Chicago Phone Book, that's ridiculous.

 

 

[matteekay]

I do appreciate how relatively small the rulebook is. I just wish they took the time to clarify certain things so we don't have to interpret so much.

 

ICORE's rulebook is a joke. I did the RO class and they literally tell you to look at the USPSA rules when you bring up something that isn't covered.

[RePete]

It goes back to what I have said since the 2015 book.  It needs a definitions glossary.

[SGT_Schultz]

On 10/1/2021 at 4:06 PM, Szczinator said:

Also the rules are minimized 41 pages,  still a lot.   ICORE is only 20 Pages.  USPSA is like a Chicago Phone Book, that's ridiculous.

 

The quality of competition in USPSA is far higher in good measure because our rulebook is far more comprehensive, has significantly less subjectivity, and is much more precise in its language than IDPA's.

 

In my neck of the woods there is zero heat in IDPA unless someone who is mostly a USPSA shooter shows up.  However, USPSA here has at least five shooters able to compete at a national level, and one capable of winning it all.

[Boomstick303]

Any sport that adds the ability of the official to use their interpretation of the rule(s) to penalize the participant is going to have issues.  The more the rule set leaves to interpretation the mow issues that will arise.  I have no issue with the USPSA rule book.  For the most part, the rules that are required to be followed and judged upon, (mostly safety related) are simple and easy to apply.   As for the rest of the rule book, it mostly  seems to deal with nuances officials and participants may run across once in a blue moon.  I do not feel that is the case with IDPA.  

Edited October 5, 2021 by Boomstick303

[deerslayer]

On 9/19/2021 at 12:47 PM, matteekay said:

 

Covered above, but the "stow" rule is for dropped, loaded magazines (3.4.7) and doesn't refer explicitly to reloads.

 

Then why is it in the Reloads section?

Edited November 2, 2021 by deerslayer

[matteekay]

37 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

 

Then why is it in the Reloads section?

 

Oddly, I didn't write the rulebook. My guess is because all things ammo and magazine-related are in that section? Including clearing malfunctions, staging magazines before the course of fire, and division capacity.