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Steel Challenge - Would SCSA Benefit From Adding Two New Official Stages - POLL


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Steel Challenge - Would SCSA Benefit From Adding Two New Official Stages - POLL  

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Just for grins 

45 minutes ago, shred said:

Casual steel shooters already dislike Pendulum for the difficulty.  I don't think anything harder or even similarly-difficult will be popular.

 

I think a bigger problem classification-wise is people that only occasionally shoot OL and SO can have stale scores holding them back.

Just for grins since we are talking about current and potential SCSA stages and likes/dislikes...Pendulum as you mentioned.  Here is a quick rundown of RFRO at the April 2021 WSS match by stage in order of difficulty and the percentage of people that shot AT or Below and the percent that shot above the Peak Times.

 

RFRO - 146 shooters

1. Speed Option - 5% at/under / 95% above

2. Outer Limits - 7% / 93% 

3. Showdown - 9% / 91% 

4. Smoke & Hope - 10% / 90% 

5. Accelerator - 10% / 90%

6. Pendulum - 11% / 89%

7. Roundabout - 12% / 88%

8. 5 to Go - 16% / 84% 

 

 

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RFRO is not a great choice for a comparison of 'difficult' shots.  Do you have numbers for centerfire pistol categories?  

 

Anecdotally by far the most bellyaching hereabouts is around Pendulum.   Of course we can't fit OL and SO on the range or maybe they'd pick up some of the slack.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, shred said:

RFRO is not a great choice for a comparison of 'difficult' shots.  Do you have numbers for centerfire pistol categories?  

 

By far the most bellyaching hereabouts is around Pendulum.   Of course we can't fit OL and SO on the range or maybe they'd pick up some of the slack.

 

 

I do.  Limited and Open.

 

Will pull them up later tonight.

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... Also using major match results is probably undercounting the shooters that have difficulty with one stage or another.

 

The people that don't shoot majors are the ones that don't like Pendulum IME.  They're also 70% or more of the club match attendees.  I think its the extended frustration of many hard plates versus one or two on the others.

 

 

 

 

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FWIW, most of the griping I hear at matches is about Pendulum first and 5tg second.  At LI matches we only get to shoot OL 4-6 times a year.  Same with SO.  One of the clubs I shoot at has six bays.  Over the course of the year they shoot all eight stages in a rotation.  However, the MD says there will ALWAYS be a Pendulum stage, because it's the hardest stage and people need the practice.

 

My worst stages are 5TG and OL.  5TG because I can't seem to get the hang of it, and OL because I'm old and slow.

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2 hours ago, shred said:

... Also using major match results is probably undercounting the shooters that have difficulty with one stage or another.

 

The people that don't shoot majors are the ones that don't like Pendulum IME.  They're also 70% or more of the club match attendees.  I think its the extended frustration of many hard plates versus one or two on the others.

 

 

 

 

One problem I ran into with lower tier matches is the fewer number of people....so percentages can be skewed.  Also, RFRO not only has the fastest times, but also has the most diverse group of shooters.....juniors, younger folks, seniors and super seniors than do the centerfire divisions.  

 

This years CCI Area 4 was the first Level III match in Texas for quite some time.  There were a lot of local match shooters who probably were shooting their first major match (me included).  There were 66 shooters in RFRO this year.  The breakdown same as above is:

 

CCI 66 Shooters RFRO

1. Outer Limits - 3% under Peak Time / 97% Above Peak Time

2. Speed Option - 5% / 95%

3. Accelerator - 6% / 94%

4. Pendulum - 9% / 91%

5. Smoke & Hope - 12% / 88% 

6. Showdown - 14% / 86% 

7. Roundabout - 15% / 85%

8. 5 to Go - 15% / 85% 

 

I personally know more than one shooter with a higher classifications that shot OL and SO at this match for the very first time.  Several others there that had only shot them 2-4 times before.  

 

There are some folks who believe that because of the fantastic low scores/records at WSS, that USPSA/SCSA will or should reduce Peak Times.  I am of the option, based on looking at ovall stats, that they will not lower the Peak Times and that it would be detrimental to SCSA overall.  On average, 10% to 12% shooters at the WSS match shot below the Peak Times but a whopping 90% of the shooters shot above the Peak Times.  Based on the data, it is my opinion that SCSA would benefit much more broadly accross the entire membership by adding two official standard size stages to provide more stages for a wider cross-section of shooters.  But that's my opinon.

 

 

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18 minutes ago, EarlKeese said:

How would it benefit? Can you elaborate?

 

1.  Two additional stages that would be more standard width and lenght would allow quite a few clubs/ranges to shoot additional official stages.  Mix is up more other than shooting the same 5-6 stages all the time.

 

2.  More ranges could shoot an 8 stage Level II match without OL and SO. 

 

3.  Two more stages would give folks who have classifications with only 4-6 of the same stages the opportunity to expand their classification base.  Yes, without OL and SO, perhaps classifications would remain overstated, but 8 of 10 is a better statistical representation than 6 of 8 if the two added stages were designed to have Peak Times of 8.50 to 9.50.  

 

4.  Give MD's the opportunity to avoid tossing in Outlaw stages...which most SCSA shooters do not like....and may not attend for that reason.   

 

There have been seveal posts with some additional good reasons but this is just a quick few that I thought of.  

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11 hours ago, shred said:

RFRO is not a great choice for a comparison of 'difficult' shots.  Do you have numbers for centerfire pistol categories?  

 

Anecdotally by far the most bellyaching hereabouts is around Pendulum.   Of course we can't fit OL and SO on the range or maybe they'd pick up some of the slack.

 

 

Shred..............few Centerfire stats.  Tandemkross 2021 Area 7.  Carry Optics (CO).   

 

 34 Shooters CO (Centerfire)

Due to the few shooters that shot below Peak Times, the following order is based on SC-101, SC-102, etc.  

 

1. 5 to Go - 9% under Peak Time / 91% above Peak Time

2. Showdown - 0% / 100% 

3. Smoke & Hope - 3% / 97% 

4. Outer Limits - 3% / 97%

5. Accelerator - 0% / 100%

6. Pendulum - 0% / 100%

7. Speed Option - 0% / 100%

8. Roundabout - 0% / 100%

 

Outer Limits (here and the other matches) is skewed towards younger shooters overall based on physical ability to move quickly between shooting boxes.

 

 

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51 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

Rimfire is for women, children and category shooters. 🤣

 

Or those who want to save scarce primers for USPSA- my priority.  I gave up shooting SCSA Open for just that reason.  I skipped the entire East Coast Steel Challenge series this season to save ammo.

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1 hour ago, rowdyb said:

Rimfire is for women, children and category shooters. 🤣

 

The ladies, pre-teens and juniors are impressive for sure...........and often intimidating to some egos.  

 

I would prefer we keep the posts on the subject of adding stages and the pros and cons.   

 

Thank you...............

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Why are we discussing fixing something that isn't broke?  SCSA has some of the highest growth rates in all the shooting disciplines.  With the possible exception of some of the shotgun disciplines, it has the highest participation of juniors and ladies.  I shoot at 7 ranges in the SE.  All but 3 have a bay that accommodate SO and/or OL.  No one complains at the ranges that don't, and none are lacking for participants.  In fact, one range who only allows one gun per competitor had 70+ shooters at their last match.  Most competitors that shoot L2 and higher have access to a range that shoots OL and SO or a place that they can practice them.  And, most of the folks who shoot 1 or 2 locals a month don't shoot L2+ matches.

 

USPSA decided to "fix" the Revolver Division several years ago, and made all the 6 shot major guns obsolete.  They fixed Production by allowing every possible mod.  Production used to make up 40-50% of the competitors at many matches.  It's now 5-10%.  They then fixed CO allow 8 ozs., 5 lumen, brass "flash lights".  The jury is still out on this one, but the CO's shooters I know aren't happy.

 

Since some ranges can't accommodate OL & SO and some people want more variety, is a good idea to take a chance at breaking a discipline that's not broke?  Why?

 

If you want variety, shoot Rimfire Challenge.  If you want to "fix" something that is broke in SCSA, push the Director of the NROI to create a SCSA specific RO certification (more than half the folks I see shooting SCSA don't shoot USPSA, have no plans on shooting USPSA, and aren't going to sit thru a 2 day USPSA RO class so they can then get the SCSA endorsement).

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30 minutes ago, cferree said:

Why are we discussing fixing something that isn't broke?  SCSA has some of the highest growth rates in all the shooting disciplines.  With the possible exception of some of the shotgun disciplines, it has the highest participation of juniors and ladies.  I shoot at 7 ranges in the SE.  All but 3 have a bay that accommodate SO and/or OL.  No one complains at the ranges that don't, and none are lacking for participants.  In fact, one range who only allows one gun per competitor had 70+ shooters at their last match.  Most competitors that shoot L2 and higher have access to a range that shoots OL and SO or a place that they can practice them.  And, most of the folks who shoot 1 or 2 locals a month don't shoot L2+ matches.

 

USPSA decided to "fix" the Revolver Division several years ago, and made all the 6 shot major guns obsolete.  They fixed Production by allowing every possible mod.  Production used to make up 40-50% of the competitors at many matches.  It's now 5-10%.  They then fixed CO allow 8 ozs., 5 lumen, brass "flash lights".  The jury is still out on this one, but the CO's shooters I know aren't happy.

 

Since some ranges can't accommodate OL & SO and some people want more variety, is a good idea to take a chance at breaking a discipline that's not broke?  Why?

 

If you want variety, shoot Rimfire Challenge.  If you want to "fix" something that is broke in SCSA, push the Director of the NROI to create a SCSA specific RO certification (more than half the folks I see shooting SCSA don't shoot USPSA, have no plans on shooting USPSA, and aren't going to sit thru a 2 day USPSA RO class so they can then get the SCSA endorsement).

 

It's great to have 7 ranges to choose from where 4 of the 7 can accomodate SO and OL.  You did not specify if the 70+ participation range was an 7-8 bay range that shoots OL and SO but perhaps it does.  It is also great that most competitors in your area that shoot L2 and higher have access to range(s) that shoots OL and SO or a place to practice them. 

 

Unfortunately, as several have expressed in their posts, their areas are not as range rich as is in your area.  If that were the case, this topic probably would not have been started.

 

Thanks for your comments.

 

 

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16 hours ago, cferree said:

If you want variety, shoot Rimfire Challenge.  If you want to "fix" something that is broke in SCSA, push the Director of the NROI to create a SCSA specific RO certification (more than half the folks I see shooting SCSA don't shoot USPSA, have no plans on shooting USPSA, and aren't going to sit thru a 2 day USPSA RO class so they can then get the SCSA endorsement).

I forgot one additional comment:

 

Your comment regarding Rimfire Challenge assumes that folks who would be in favor of adding additional SCSA stages only shoot rimfire.  This is not the case.  I do shoot rimfire rifles and pistols but I also have an M class in PCCO and I also have STI Steelmaster 9mm and STI Edge that I enjoy shooting. 

 

From what I have read from the "Yes" voters, they (and me) are ardent SCSA shooters who enjoy being able to shoot rimfire and centerfire guns.......and we dislike Outlaw stages being mixed in.   The yes voters are typically driven by the restrictive size of OL and SO based on their local range physical situations and are looking for solutions. 

 

It is not uncommon in our local matches to see two guns.....one centerfire and one rimfire.  Clearly the COVID-19 era has seen an increase in rimfire due to cost, shortages of casing, powder and primers associated with centerfire.  You probably see this at your local SCSA matches.

 

Thank you..

 

ps.  I totally agree with your comments regarding USPSA RO classes.............there is no reason not to offer RO certifications just for SCSA.  USPSA - SCSA ----Two different sports.  

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2 hours ago, Hoops said:

It is not uncommon in our local matches to see two guns

 

At the last three matches everyone on my squad shot two guns.  Same for the match this Sat.  I'll be shooting RFRO and PCCO.  When I run out of PCC ammo I'll switch to RFPO and Open since I still have about 700 rounds of Open minor loaded up.

 

I just looked at the squading for Sat.  Four of the five squads have a majority of two gun shooters. There is only one one gun shooter on my squad, and that only because he doesn't have any more PCC ammo.  The fifth squad is half and half only because there are four new female shooters in that squad shooting one gun each.  I'm not sure I would go to a match that only allowed one gun.  That seems pretty boring.

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On 8/23/2021 at 6:29 PM, shred said:

  Do you have numbers for centerfire pistol categories?  

 

 

 

 

I looked again at Area 4 CCI:

 

Centerfire - 41%

Rimfire - 59%

 

Centerfire Pistol - 22%

PCC - 19%

Rimfire Pistol - 29%

Rimfire Rifle - 30%

 

 I did not run numbers on (would take a lot of digging) the percentage of individuals that shot both Rimfire and Centerfire which I did.  From my circle of observation at the match, there were a number of individuals who were shooting Rimfire and Centerfire guns.

 

The point of this, perhaps.........going back to the original topic......in my opinion, from reading posts and doing a reasonable amount of research on this........is that SCSA shooters who shoot at smaller ranges (but not limited to this only), that would like to see added official stages are not interested in Rimfire Challenge as an alternative.  Instead, they/we/me would like to see additional SCSA stage options shooting both Centerfire and Rimfire guns.  

 

Hope people continue to take the poll.

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Today's NROI email topic is for USPSA as they usually are.  But there were several things in this publication that made me think about our current discussion on stage options, change and perhaps even Outer Limits.

 

It may not correlate to you but I thought the artical was interesting.

 

BTW.............at 70 now, I think I may be "Uncle Joe" or closing in on him 🙂

 

https://nroi.org/stage-design/ethics-and-stage-design/

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for everyone who participated in the poll and making comments.

 

I have asked the moderators to close this poll.

 

Perhaps after USPSA management settles down a bit from the recent changes this subject can be raised again.

 

Hoops

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/24/2021 at 5:37 AM, Hoops said:

 

Outer Limits (here and the other matches) is skewed towards younger shooters overall based on physical ability to move quickly between shooting boxes.

 

 

if by 'younger', you mean 'younger than 80', i guess I would agree. At only 60 I'm at no disadvantage whatsoever in the ability to move 6 feet.  Just like USPSA, physical speed is not really a thing until you get to the point of being crippled. It's always about leaving earlier and shooting earlier and wasting less time.

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On 8/23/2021 at 8:38 PM, Hoops said:

 Based on the data, it is my opinion that SCSA would benefit much more broadly accross the entire membership by adding two official standard size stages to provide more stages for a wider cross-section of shooters.  But that's my opinon.

 

Don't want this to get lost in all the other shenanigans, but to me, the above suggestion seems like a good idea, and I think you have made a reasonable case for it. Our range is fortunate enough to have 7 bays that we can put either of the two big stages in, but not everyone planned so well.

 

On the one hand, one of the things that people (including me) like about steel is there is a set standard, so it's a continuing goal to beat my total time for either the whole 8-stage group, for for the 2 separate 4-stage groups the way our club always shoots them on mon-wed. On the other hand, one of the things that people (including me) *don't* like about steel is that it's always the same old stages. Kind of a conundrum. That's why I shoot more USPSA, lol.

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I have a different opinion about Outer Limits which I have mentioned before.  In our area we have large group of active, retired and disabled veterans.  SCSA is an excellent format for disabled vets and other disabled shooters.......with the exception of OL.  4 second penalty per string or 12 second penalty for the stage does not truely reflect their shooting skills.  All of the other stages, even if in a wheelchair allows these folks an equal chance to shoot to their shooting skill level......but no way they can manuver a wheel chair over the shooting boxes without a lot of effort.....and time on the clock.

 

There are other reasonable reasons that perhaps should give thought to the only odd stage we have in SC.  

 

 

Thanks

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