Steel Challenge - Would SCSA Benefit From Adding Two New Official Stages - POLL

[38super]

I'm lousy with a wheel gun, can move a lotta dirt tho.

[motosapiens]

On 7/31/2021 at 2:49 PM, Hoops said:

From my experience where I shoot, most folks who show up want to shoot a SC match aren't too excited to find an Outlaw stage mixed in.  

interesting. to me, one of the things that annoys me about SC is it's always the same stages. I really enjoy rimfire challenge where i actually at least have to think about the stage and what the best way to shoot it will be. In my dream world, I would have 40 or so SC stages in 8 different groups of 5 that are pretty similar in terms of target difficulty and times, and let matches choose one from each group.

[Hoops]

10 hours ago, motosapiens said:

interesting. to me, one of the things that annoys me about SC is it's always the same stages. I really enjoy rimfire challenge where i actually at least have to think about the stage and what the best way to shoot it will be. In my dream world, I would have 40 or so SC stages in 8 different groups of 5 that are pretty similar in terms of target difficulty and times, and let matches choose one from each group.

If I recall correctly, you and your wife frequently shoot SCSA so I appreciate your input.  For some reason records that have been set seem to be a concern.  I believe that those who are capable of setting world records will master any new stages and continue to set records.  

 

I have reached out to a lot of folks with a wide range of skills and classifications.  The vast majority would like to see some alternative stages.  Range owners will continue to be under pressure from developler's that want to build around them or from people who are against shooting sports.  We have seen ranges closed.  So many ranges are limited in size and number of bays.  Many ranges just can't fit OL or SO which limits the stages to 6.  New stages can be designed using the same 5 steel plates we currently use so no cost to MD's.  Using some strategicly placed 10" plates would add difficulty and get the Peak Time up beyond the super fast stages.

 

And in doing so, perhaps addressing the punitive 4 second / 12 second penalty for people with disablities who get hit wrongly on OL would be a good thing as well.

 

Thanks for your input.

 

 

[AR_James]

On 8/17/2021 at 1:43 PM, 38super said:

1960s standard issue side arm was a 38Spl, 5 shots with one make up round.  Steel Challenge was an LEO training aid and still should be.  Minutia: IPSC/USUSPA and Steel Challenge all started in Fawnskin, north side of Big Bear lake.

 

Thank you!  

[AR_James]

On 8/17/2021 at 10:47 AM, Hoops said:

Would the USPSA shooters be satisfied if the matches you have were the same pre-determined 8 classifiers?

 

No "match" stages......strictly the same 8 classifiers?

 

If you are trying to make a connection between USPSA and Steel Challenge, to be fair with your question, for the USPSA folks that would not be satisfied with matches that had the same pre-determined eight classifiers.  You have to ask if the stage count was bumped to ten classifiers, would they change their answer.

 

Based off of the local USPSA matches, to make Steel Challenge more like USPSA you would have matches with 6-7 non-classifier stages and 1-2 Steel Challenge classifiers.  The serious SC folks I now, don't like these matches.  Apples to oranges comparison.  

 

 

[AR_James]

10 hours ago, Hoops said:

Using some strategicly placed 10" plates would add difficulty and get the Peak Time up beyond the super fast stages.

 

The top young folks currently shooting this sport are amazing.  You put the same size plates that are currently being used into your 30' x 60' bay and these new stages will be super fast stages in short order.  Peak Times might actually fall faster.    

 

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, AR_James said:

 

If you are trying to make a connection between USPSA and Steel Challenge, to be fair with your question, for the USPSA folks that would not be satisfied with matches that had the same pre-determined eight classifiers.  You have to ask if the stage count was bumped to ten classifiers, would they change their answer.

 

Based off of the local USPSA matches, to make Steel Challenge more like USPSA you would have matches with 6-7 non-classifier stages and 1-2 Steel Challenge classifiers.  The serious SC folks I now, don't like these matches.  Apples to oranges comparison.  

 

 

Yep.....already not nailed on my poor analogy 

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, AR_James said:

 

The top young folks currently shooting this sport are amazing.  You put the same size plates that are currently being used into your 30' x 60' bay and these new stages will be super fast stages in short order.  Peak Times might actually fall faster.    

 

Top young folks will certainly master any new stages.  New world records would be set.  

 

The thought behind starting this topic and discussing adding one or two new standard sized stages had more to do with the many ranges that can't physically fit OL and SO.  The addition of one or two new stages would expand the number of official SCSA that these ranges could shoot.   Based on this, the question posed was whether or not SCSA would benefit from the addition?  

 

So far this poll is headed for a photo finish.  

 

Thanks......

 

 

[RaylanGivens]

You can't really compare USPSA matches with SCSA matches...  or USPSA shooters with SCSA shooters...  At least not at the ranges I shoot at in central Florida.

 

We shoot a lot of USPSA matches at our range...  Weekly, monthly and some level 2 matches throughout the year...  We run one classifier in one of our monthly USPSA matches...  Occasionally we run a full (5 or 6 stage) classifier match to help people not classified become classified...  We usually get a low turnout for these matches because most of our USPSA shooters don't want to waste a day shooting them...  It helps new shooters, so we run them.

 

We have small bays and can only run the standard 6 stages...  We run one Steel Challenge match a month...  and one Level 2 match a year...  Our Steel Challenge Match Director loves outlaw stages...  things like 'Inner Limits' and other old and different stages...  Most of the Steel Challenge shooters complain when he runs outlaw stages...  They want to run the same six stages every month...  Classification seems to be more important to Steel Challenge shooters...  especially newer SC shooters.

[BillChunn]

This year we are starting a USPSA club using the 5 bays that were created for IDPA competition at Oakland County Sportsman's Club in Clarkston, Michigan.  We have backing from the board of directors to create addition bays.  The down side is asking for two bays that are over 40 yards deep for OL and SO just to fit all 8 stages for steel challenge.  That's a LOT of real estate to dedicate, even if it can be used for USPSA and IDPA matches.

 

So yes, additional stages that would fit on smaller bays would be a HUGE advantage to existing and start-up clubs that have "USPSA-sized" bays.

 

We are hoping to create a world-class range for these types of competitions with large metal roofed pavilions, electricity and Wi-Fi coverage on each bay so the scoring tablets can be polled from a central building.

 

BC

[zzt]

37 minutes ago, BillChunn said:

So yes, additional stages that would fit on smaller bays would be a HUGE advantage to existing and start-up clubs that have "USPSA-sized" bays.

 

That is the whole point of this discussion.

 

To your other point:  when Ontelaunee decided to host the East Coast Steel Challenge Series they carved out eight new bays specifically for SCSA.  Each bay was designed for a specific stage, and always hosted that stage.  All of those bays are now used for USPSA in addition to the regular bays.  So they have 12 or 13 stage LI matches, and host LII and LIII matches.  They can accommodate up to 15 stages not counting the chrono station.  So I think you will find creating two large bays for OL and SO will benefit your USPSA stages.  You will have to room to be quite inventive, or devious in stage design.

[Hoops]

42 minutes ago, BillChunn said:

This year we are starting a USPSA club using the 5 bays that were created for IDPA competition at Oakland County Sportsman's Club in Clarkston, Michigan.  We have backing from the board of directors to create addition bays.  The down side is asking for two bays that are over 40 yards deep for OL and SO just to fit all 8 stages for steel challenge.  That's a LOT of real estate to dedicate, even if it can be used for USPSA and IDPA matches.

 

So yes, additional stages that would fit on smaller bays would be a HUGE advantage to existing and start-up clubs that have "USPSA-sized" bays.

 

We are hoping to create a world-class range for these types of competitions with large metal roofed pavilions, electricity and Wi-Fi coverage on each bay so the scoring tablets can be polled from a central building.

 

BC

Bill, thank you for your post.  You described exactly the reason this topic was started.

 

The question will be how to get this to the attention of USPSA/SCSA.

[AR_James]

49 minutes ago, BillChunn said:

So yes, additional stages that would fit on smaller bays would be a HUGE advantage to existing and start-up clubs that have "USPSA-sized" bays.

 

We are hoping to create a world-class range for these types of competitions with large metal roofed pavilions, electricity and Wi-Fi coverage on each bay so the scoring tablets can be polled from a central building.

 

Help me understand why adding additional stages would be a "HUGE" advantage.  

 

To get a classification you only have to shoot four out of the eight official stages.  So, if a range can accommodate all the stages except Outer Limits and Speed Option, no issue there.  A Tier 1 match only has to use two official stages to have a match.  So, local matches are not an issue even if a range can not fit the two larger stages.  And, a club can even hold a state championship without using Outer Limits or Speed Option. If two additional stages where added, I would expect to see all ten stages required at Tier 3/4 just as all the stages are required at this level currently.  So, a range that cannot set-up Outer Limits and Speed Option still would not be able to host this level of match.   

 

 

[zzt]

2 hours ago, AR_James said:

Help me understand why adding additional stages would be a "HUGE" advantage.  

 

Because most SCSA shooters would rather shoot sanctioned stages rather than outlaw.  This would help L1 matches attract more shooters.  The new official stages would go in the bays that outlaw stages currently go.

 

One club can only fit two SCSA stages with four outlaw stages.  I don't shoot there.  Four SCSA stages is the minimum I'd consider, and I'd prefer six.  Two new compact stages would allow every club I shoot SCSA matches at to offer six official stages with no outlaws.

 

There is no reason to expect LIII/IV matches be required to offer all ten.  Rules are constantly amended, so they can be changed to require only the current eight.

[mchapman]

3 hours ago, AR_James said:

So, a range that cannot set-up Outer Limits and Speed Option still would not be able to host this level of match.

You are making an assumption that they do not have enough other bays, which may not be the case, the other bays may just to small for OL and SO.  That was my problem, I have 16 competition bays and 5 practice bays to use but we had to enlarge two of the bays to fit OL and SO .

[mchapman]

7 minutes ago, mchapman said:

You are making an assumption that they do not have enough other bays, which may not be the case, the other bays may just to small for OL and SO.  That was my problem, I have 16 competition bays and 5 practice bays to use but we had to enlarge two of the bays to fit OL and SO .

[AzShooter]

How about bringing back some of the original stages.  I really like the Flying M.

[Hoops]

2 hours ago, mchapman said:

You are making an assumption that they do not have enough other bays, which may not be the case, the other bays may just to small for OL and SO.  That was my problem, I have 16 competition bays and 5 practice bays to use but we had to enlarge two of the bays to fit OL and SO .

Wow, what a layout.  Even with that your club has to enlarge two bays for OL and SO.  

 

Suppose we make a few assumptions given that none of us have seen all the ranges accross the U.S.

 

Some reasonable assumptions that come to mind are (I'm sure there are many more):

 

1.  A "number" of ranges can't support OL and SO and have no available land/space to add new bays or enlarge existing bays.

 

2.  These ranges may have only 3-4-5...maybe 6 available bays.  Some these bays can't suport all of the remaining 6 official SCSA stages.  Some can.

 

3.  Ranges/clubs are limited to (a) The same 5 or 6 official stages or (b) a mixture of official stages and Outlaw stages which are not popular with a large number of SCSA shooters.  I was surprised to see that only 2 offical stages are required when uploaded to SCSA.  There must be a number of matches that can fit only 2 official stages.

 

4. While it is not practical to think that adding two official stages would solve all of these issues, would it not help quite a few ranges/matches?

 

5.  It was not the intent when I started this post to resolve L1, L2, LIII and WSS match issues that folks have expressed.  My position has been IF SCSA were to be open to the idea of adding two official stages there would be a process initiated by them that would involve the SCSA members.  Several people have posted some good ideas and others have expressed opposition concerns.  Let's assume that these concerns would be resolved by SCSA org.

 

So, perhaps some of you are "open" to the idea of adding two stages but want to see more of the final details....then vote Yes in this pole.  If you are not open under any circumstances.....then vote No.   

 

Thanks for the input thus far.  Lot's of good comments.

 

 

 

[AR_James]

22 hours ago, mchapman said:

You are making an assumption that they do not have enough other bays, which may not be the case, the other bays may just to small for OL and SO.  

 

Nope.  The assumption had nothing to do with the number of bays a club has.  

[RaylanGivens]

@Hoops Why don't you send your Area Director or Mike Foley or both an email asking them how to proceed?

 

Better yet add @Zack Jones to your list...  Zack is actually the SCSA contact person...  He used to post fairly often here,but I haven't seen him lately.

[Hoops]

6 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

@Hoops Why don't you send your Area Director or Mike Foley or both an email asking them how to proceed?

 

Better yet add @Zack Jones to your list...  Zack is actually the SCSA contact person...  He used to post fairly often here,but I haven't seen him lately.

Thanks.  Initially I thought that if the poll indicated majority interest in the possibility of adding one or two new stages, then I would reach out to USPSA/SCSA.  There have been a lot of views......pushisng 2k now.  Discounting repeat views it would appear that many people view but do not vote or comment.   

 

I am considering closing the poll today and contacting USPSA/SCSA.

[Hoops]

This poll will remain open thru the initial duration of 9/15/21.

 

Voting has reached nearly 50.  Hopefully by the poll closing date the number will be 100 or more.  Getting close to 2K views so hopefully some more of the viewers will vote.

[shred]

Couple random thoughts from reading the last week or so of posts.

 

IME steel shooters can be broken down into a couple groups "SCSA shooters" and "generic steel shooters", for lack of better terms.

 

SCSA shooters care about classifications and what their times are over time and generally don't like or want outlaw stages. 

 

Generic steel shooters are fine with outlaw stages and don't care much about classifications.  But a pretty good chunk of them like the repeated nature of stages so they can see how they did versus 'last time'.

 

We have weeknight 5-stage steel matches, probably 2 to 1 'steel' to 'SCSA' shooters.  I suspect the majority would welcome a couple additional regular stages that fit rather than "is it going to be Accelerator or Pendulum or outlaw this week?".

 

IDPA has what, three classifiers?  Lots of people hate on IDPA, but it's rarely because of the number of classifiers.

[Hoops]

1 hour ago, shred said:

Couple random thoughts from reading the last week or so of posts.

 

IME steel shooters can be broken down into a couple groups "SCSA shooters" and "generic steel shooters", for lack of better terms.

 

SCSA shooters care about classifications and what their times are over time and generally don't like or want outlaw stages. 

 

Generic steel shooters are fine with outlaw stages and don't care much about classifications.  But a pretty good chunk of them like the repeated nature of stages so they can see how they did versus 'last time'.

 

We have weeknight 5-stage steel matches, probably 2 to 1 'steel' to 'SCSA' shooters.  I suspect the majority would welcome a couple additional regular stages that fit rather than "is it going to be Accelerator or Pendulum or outlaw this week?".

 

IDPA has what, three classifiers?  Lots of people hate on IDPA, but it's rarely because of the number of classifiers.

Shred, I agree with you.  We have folks at our matches love to shoot "steel" whether they are a member of SCSA or not.  As you noted though, they do keep up with how did against previous matches.   Outlaw matches are one and done.  

 

Frankly, I just don't see the down side of adding two official SCSA stages.  I think it will actually help the classification system if the new stages had an added degree of difficulty.   SCSA reguires only 4 stages to earn a classification.  For the ranges that can't shoot OL and SO, many SCSA shooters get a classification without ever shooting OL and SO and are limited to just 6 stages for their classification.   At least two added standard sized stages would increase their classification stages to 8 instead of 6.  The added variety of stages would probably would help attract more folks shooting their matches.   

 

And.....it would open up more Level II (and Level III?) matches assuming that the WSS may remain the same during a phase in time period.  

 

 

[shred]

Casual steel shooters already dislike Pendulum for the difficulty.  I don't think anything harder or even similarly-difficult will be popular.

 

I think a bigger problem classification-wise is people that only occasionally shoot OL and SO can have stale scores holding them back.