How to Improve in PCC Division?

[Ontarget]

Looking for suggestions as to how to improve in PCC Division. I rank Sharpshooter in almost all IDPA Divisions. I assumed I could

make Marksman in PCC Division with not too much effort. Now after 3 classifiers (2 5x5 and one standard), I'm still at Novice.

 I think my Spartan 9mm PC is at least adequate with C-More ret dot and Geissele SSA-E trigger. One thing I tried was using a heavier 6.4 ounce

buffer and .308 spring from Kaw Valley. The gun functioned fine, but it didn't seem to lessen the recoil compared to standard buffer and spring.

So I would appreciate any suggestions as to how to improve in this division.

[Racinready300ex]

What do your times look like for each string? Points down need to be zero. 

 

You need to get to where you're able to run the gun as fast as you can pull the trigger at 10 yards and not drop any points. If you can't do that you need to run the trigger as fast as you can with out dropping points. Splitting .05 slower and not dropping seconds with points down is worth it. That's mostly going to be stance and grip. 

 

After that it's going to be nailing the reload, you can dial that in during dryfire. 

 

Shooting stages will be a whole different ball game. I'm new to PCC too, just started a few weeks ago. I shot the classifier once, dropped 2 points and my reload was slow because the only mag I have that would hold the bolt open wouldn't drop free. I still manage EX. My local IDPA club doesn't allow PCC so my first IDPA match will be a level 3 in a few months lol Should be fun. 

[Racinready300ex]

51 minutes ago, Ontarget said:

Looking for suggestions as to how to improve in PCC Division. I rank Sharpshooter in almost all IDPA Divisions. I assumed I could

make Marksman in PCC Division with not too much effort. Now after 3 classifiers (2 5x5 and one standard), I'm still at Novice.

 I think my Spartan 9mm PC is at least adequate with C-More ret dot and Geissele SSA-E trigger. One thing I tried was using a heavier 6.4 ounce

buffer and .308 spring from Kaw Valley. The gun functioned fine, but it didn't seem to lessen the recoil compared to standard buffer and spring.

So I would appreciate any suggestions as to how to improve in this division.

 

You're in MD, shoot any uspsa? I'm shooting Sanners Sunday. It's a couple hour drive from where you are, not sure if you travel that far for club matches. For me 2 hours to a match is pretty normal.

[Ontarget]

Yes, I need to practice the 5x5, and your suggestions are excellent. Thanks. The PCC 5x5 is mostly one skill, fast strong side shooting.  

I don't get to Sanners, 2 hours is too much travel time for me. I shoot USPSA at AAFG sometimes.

[Kokeman]

Changing to a JP, Taccom, or Blizkraig buffer will help with recoil. But light reloads will do the most to help with recoil. I get mine down to 130 pf out of my 16 inch pcc. They won't even function out of most of my hand guns(112 pf out of 5.25 barrel). Practice reloads. I only shoot USPSA so I'm not sure if these apply. Don't go to deep into windows and pockets so your not having to back out. Practice hard weak side leans. Stage planning has helped me the most you don't shoot the stage the same as pistol. 

[rowdyb]

9th place overall at IDPA nats in PCC. That's my idpa pcc claim to fame. not knowing you, seeing any data, or watching video of you here is what i say generically

 

-stop chasing the lightest felt recoil. tune the gun to make pf with idpa's unique pcc pf. tune the gun to dot movement. but stop tuning for felt recoil.

-get mags that are 100% and come in and out pouches easily.

-have a gun you have absolutely ZERO concerns about its function.

-understand mechanical offset/height over bore and learn to shoot it on close stuff and clearing props, by second nature.

-have a zero that makes sense. a 10y or 15y is a mistake in my opinion.

-build a shooting position that lets you shoot zeros on open targets as fast as you can pull the trigger

-learn how to move with a long gun.

-understand zero points down is the expectation, shoot for that always.

-learn to be confident, you can do things with the pcc you'd never pull off with a  pistol.

-use the dot properly, it is not a front sight.

 

But more than anything having shooting positions that let you shoot confidently and accurately without negatively effecting your accuracy will help your stage times.

Fixing your classifier times is a little different.

[matteekay]

On 8/6/2021 at 6:53 PM, rowdyb said:

9th place overall at IDPA nats in PCC. That's my idpa pcc claim to fame. not knowing you, seeing any data, or watching video of you here is what i say generically

 

-stop chasing the lightest felt recoil. tune the gun to make pf with idpa's unique pcc pf. tune the gun to dot movement. but stop tuning for felt recoil.

-get mags that are 100% and come in and out pouches easily.

-have a gun you have absolutely ZERO concerns about its function.

-understand mechanical offset/height over bore and learn to shoot it on close stuff and clearing props, by second nature.

-have a zero that makes sense. a 10y or 15y is a mistake in my opinion.

-build a shooting position that lets you shoot zeros on open targets as fast as you can pull the trigger

-learn how to move with a long gun.

-understand zero points down is the expectation, shoot for that always.

-learn to be confident, you can do things with the pcc you'd never pull off with a  pistol.

-use the dot properly, it is not a front sight.

 

But more than anything having shooting positions that let you shoot confidently and accurately without negatively effecting your accuracy will help your stage times.

Fixing your classifier times is a little different.

 

This is great advice. I'm curious - what do you think is the ideal zero for IDPA (or PCC's in general)?

[Steve RA]

I think that depends on where you shoot the most.  Some matches are out to around 100yds, others much shorter.  Zero at half the distance between the closest and furthest target.

[MHicks]

While reliability is huge with any gun or division I've recently seen pcc shooters having way more problems then handgun shooters. Repeated misfeeds and issues that take quite a while to fix. Not specifically IDPA.

[Nolan]

1 hour ago, MHicks said:

While reliability is huge with any gun or division I've recently seen pcc shooters having way more problems then handgun shooters. Repeated misfeeds and issues that take quite a while to fix. Not specifically IDPA.

 

Ditto!  Almost always somebody with a 97 round extension and 1.1 grains of powder in range scrap brass under the cheapest bullet they can buy!

 

Rowdy's advice is spot on, follow it!

 

Nolan

[rowdyb]

I run a 50 yard zero on my IDPA PCC.

[rowdyb]

In some of the pcc classes or privates I've done I always run into people who say, "the furthest shot at my local is never more than 15 yards and most are at 10 yards, so my zero is 10 yards". And while the distances of most the targets in your match may be those distances and you may only ever shoot your pcc in that match ever it still isn't what I would zero a gun and and this is how I demonstrate why.

 

Simply I put a paster on a target, have the student load up a 30 round mag and we shoot a walk back drill. I have them hold the dot exclusively on the paster. Their aim point should not change at all. I don't want them chasing holes or trying to shoot the paster, just dot on paster and that is it alone. We start at 3 yards from the target and they shoot 3 rounds, having the dot on the paster. Three steps back, three more shots in their own time with no pressure. This takes them just past 30 yards for the furthest shot.

 

Often I will do the same drill on a target next to theirs with my gun zeroed at 50 yards, if it doesn't distract them. Then we go forward and look at the height of the horizontal spread of all the shots, and compare it to the size of the down zero scoring zone. And to a person everyone gets rid of their 10 yard zero and moves to at least a 25 or whatever distance beyond that they feel they can accurately zero their gun at. And then we go over how they can now aim and shoot a variety of stuff and so on. It's really quite informative.

Edited August 10, 2021 by rowdyb

[IHAVEGAS]

Just playing around it seems like a 20 yard zero might work pretty well for IDPA (I think the rules say max distance is 50 yards and unless it is a pcc only match anything past 25 yards has been the exception at matches I've attended). https://www.federalpremium.com/Ballistics-Calculator

 

Playing around is no substitute for actual field testing like rowdyb has done, but interesting. Intuitively the thing I like about a closer zero is that it should help keep folks from shooting the snot out of walls and windows on the very close targets, but again I yield to rowdyb's field testing and match experience. 

[Boomstick303]

I do not know about IDPA, but for USPSA there is a thread running around on here where Max Leograndis said he favored the 75 yd. zero.  He also attached a dope chart for his particular load, and if you think about it, it makes sense.  I would make your zero the furthest you would ever shoot in IDPA.  The reason being is if you ever do see those targets your PCC is already zeroed for that.  Then figure out your hold overs for shorter distances.  Keep the zero at that distance and you holds are always true as long as you are using consistent ammo.  I would think once you figure out what ever distance you want your zero to be, keep it and get used to shooting with that zero.  This way your brain trains to remember your appropriate hold overs (or hold under if that is ever the case) are so your holds become subconscious.  

 

In my eyes its easier to hold over for close targets than remembering holds for targets at distance and you are only really holding over and never really aiming under a target to obtain the desired POI  (point of impact).

 

[MemphisMechanic]

I’m with Rowdy and the others: A 50ish yard zero is the ticket. 
 

Learn your holds for headshots etc.

Done.

Easy.

 

[Jim Watson]

With 115 gr ball and a sight height of 2" that Federal app shows that with a 50 yard zero, POI will be within 1" of POA from 10 to 65 yards.

 

A 15 yard zero is really the first crossing, 2.2" high at 50 yards, back on at 90 yards.

 

 

I looked at some carbines at the store yesterday, reddot sight height is more like 3" which puts you within an inch from 15 to 85 yards with a 75 yard zero.  The only thing to worry about is parallax due to a tall sight at close range.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Jim Watson

[rowdyb]

yeah it is much easier to get someone to hold the upper 1/3 of the body or head down zero at every distance, and similar for plates or clays or poppers.

 

i much prefer to only have a hold over than a mix of over and under like you get with the really close zeroes.

 

and just fundamentally i don't want a zero for the easiest targets but for the hardest ones.

[Bowman]

On 8/8/2021 at 5:08 PM, rowdyb said:

I run a 50 yard zero on my IDPA PCC.

I do the same.  Seems to keep things simple. We don't shoot over about 50 yards in IDPA.

[jpm2953]

I'm not expert with a pcc but i am a master......(dad joke?) My only claim to fame is winning GA State IDPA in PCC this year. 

 

Quit chasing recoil reduction. having a gun that functions 100% of the time is the most important part.

 

Hopefully you have a shot timer and a place to practice. Just push yourself. Set up drills and par times. When you hit your par time for that particular drill. Lower it .1 sec and try again. Figure out what your weakness's are and work on those. 

 

Not sure your experience shooting a red dot. Don't wait for it to settle before pulling the 2nd shot. 

[Racinready300ex]

On 8/6/2021 at 6:07 PM, Ontarget said:

Yes, I need to practice the 5x5, and your suggestions are excellent. Thanks. The PCC 5x5 is mostly one skill, fast strong side shooting.  

I don't get to Sanners, 2 hours is too much travel time for me. I shoot USPSA at AAFG sometimes.

 

I'm like 4 hours from sanners, but AAFG is like 2. I try to shoot uspsa at AAFG when I can.