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Just put a wolf reduced power mainspring in my r8.....thats it? Underwhelmed


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Simple solution with a big smile 😊 on your face. Send to Pinnacle Custom or TK Custom both. I have a trigger from Pinnacle Custom it is at 6.5 lbs original firing pin been shooting the revolver for at least 15 years and it is still smooth as can be and still at 6.5 lbs. 

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Ok so forgive me if I'm seeming dense, just trying to get my head wrapped around the concepts.

 

Just got back from some range testing. I got as far as I could but was interrupted by a storm. So I tested factory geco, Winchester white box, federal, plus reloads with tula primers and cci primers. I had FTF on the tula and the Winchester several times. I had it weighing the hammer fall at over 50 oz, something like 52 consistently. Then the trigger weight itself was around 9 lbs. This seems odd to me that I would still get ftf.

 

Im confused when you say "don't worry about weighing the pull, just crank it til it goes off 100%"

 

Then how do I lighten the trigger? Objectively, if I go heavier from here, it feels no lighter than the stock operation. where I'm getting confused, is that I'm unclear if the return spring affects my trigger squeeze weight (i.e. what we would call the weight of the trigger) or is it ONLY the speed/strength of the snap back after the trigger is fully depressed. I have the 13lb in there right now, the lightest of the kit so Id have to buy more options if thats the case. 

 

To be honest, if I have to go much heavier from here Ill just either a)load up federal and make this a federal only gun or b) just throw the stock spring back in and call it a day.

 

Or should I be consulting other brands besides wolf?

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Return spring weight directly effects the trigger weight. So yes, a 13lb feels lighter than your factory spring and measures lighter too.

 

Are you saying you tested factory ammo? Or reload with all those different primers? 
 

Once you start leave the factory conditions, especially with a revolver, there’s much more at play here than just the trigger weight. Hammer fall weight, trigger return speed and how smooth the action is are much more important than overall trigger weight. It’s typical for revolvers to also require fully seated primers, not just federal. I bet if you fully seated all those Winchester and Tula they would have gone off at a 50oz trigger pull. 
 

Typically a gun is set up with an action job first, then mainspring, then rebound spring. The action job takes all the hiccups and imperfections out of the gun itself. Tuning the mainspring is 100% based on lighting off primers, nothing else. Then it’s on to rebound spring- set that to your finger speed. 
 

Don’t get hung up on the overall weight of the trigger itself- it doesn’t produce a higher score on target or win any points for being light. Get the gun smooth, then 100% ignition, then a rebound that’s fast enough to keep up. All my guns use factory springs, non-ribbed and factory return springs and all are around 7ish pounds. 
 

You could build guns in the 4s and even high 3s if you wanted to- but they don’t have the speed to keep up. 

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See I'm not too caught up on polishing everything at the moment because this is a well worn gun that is already a performance center. Gun..thousands of rounds through it by now. I've owned since 2013 and it's been my main shooter for white a long time. It's pretty damn smooth. Could I polish stuff? Yes probably.

 

As far as the ammo I tested it was factory Winchester factory geco and factory federal, plus CCI spp reloads and tula spp reloads. No federal reloads yet.

 

So maybe I go one step up on the rebound spring? I get that yes, there are many interweaving aspects of a "trigger job" but what I seek here is taking that already smooth hitch-free factory trigger and just going a few pounds lighter. But a hammer fall over 50oz and trigger weight at almost 9lbs didn't get me there with factory stuff which I found odd.

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12 hours ago, Guitarmageddon said:

Ok so forgive me if I'm seeming dense, just trying to get my head wrapped around the concepts.

 

Just got back from some range testing. I got as far as I could but was interrupted by a storm. So I tested factory geco, Winchester white box, federal, plus reloads with tula primers and cci primers. I had FTF on the tula and the Winchester several times. I had it weighing the hammer fall at over 50 oz, something like 52 consistently. Then the trigger weight itself was around 9 lbs. This seems odd to me that I would still get ftf.

 

Im confused when you say "don't worry about weighing the pull, just crank it til it goes off 100%"

 

Then how do I lighten the trigger? Objectively, if I go heavier from here, it feels no lighter than the stock operation. where I'm getting confused, is that I'm unclear if the return spring affects my trigger squeeze weight (i.e. what we would call the weight of the trigger) or is it ONLY the speed/strength of the snap back after the trigger is fully depressed. I have the 13lb in there right now, the lightest of the kit so Id have to buy more options if thats the case. 

 

To be honest, if I have to go much heavier from here Ill just either a)load up federal and make this a federal only gun or b) just throw the stock spring back in and call it a day.

 

Or should I be consulting other brands besides wolf?

You will need over 60 oz if you're shooting factory ammo other than Federal.  Tula, CCI and geco are Hard.  WW is usually a little less than those, but not much.  

 

So 1st thing is you must reload Fed primers if you're going to lighten up your action much.  If you're going to shoot "those others" you just have to accept a heavy pull.

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29 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

You will need over 60 oz if you're shooting factory ammo other than Federal.  Tula, CCI and geco are Hard.  WW is usually a little less than those, but not much.  

 

So 1st thing is you must reload Fed primers if you're going to lighten up your action much.  If you're going to shoot "those others" you just have to accept a heavy pull.

Yea this was kind of what I was thinking. I think I may leave the trigger as is at around 50oz at the hammer and 8.5-9lbs at pull, and then slowly dial back with some federal reloads.

 

On a related note, I see some referencing very specific primer seating depths for federal. This is not something I have ever considered or fussed over with CCI/tula up to this point (factory hammers of course)

 

How would I best accommodate for this on my Dillon 550? Just get the feel for a good squish and make sure it's seated .00x inches past the head?

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13 hours ago, Guitarmageddon said:

Ok so forgive me if I'm seeming dense, just trying to get my head wrapped around the concepts.

 

Just got back from some range testing. I got as far as I could but was interrupted by a storm. So I tested factory geco, Winchester white box, federal, plus reloads with tula primers and cci primers. I had FTF on the tula and the Winchester several times. I had it weighing the hammer fall at over 50 oz, something like 52 consistently. Then the trigger weight itself was around 9 lbs. This seems odd to me that I would still get ftf.

 

Im confused when you say "don't worry about weighing the pull, just crank it til it goes off 100%"

 

Then how do I lighten the trigger? Objectively, if I go heavier from here, it feels no lighter than the stock operation. where I'm getting confused, is that I'm unclear if the return spring affects my trigger squeeze weight (i.e. what we would call the weight of the trigger) or is it ONLY the speed/strength of the snap back after the trigger is fully depressed. I have the 13lb in there right now, the lightest of the kit so Id have to buy more options if thats the case. 

 

To be honest, if I have to go much heavier from here Ill just either a)load up federal and make this a federal only gun or b) just throw the stock spring back in and call it a day.

 

Or should I be consulting other brands besides wolf?

 

 

Are you saying that the factory ammo fired but you had issues with your reloads? If so there is a very good chance your reloads do not have the primers fully seated, they may be the same as you have run successfully in your autos for years but when trying to lower the trigger weight on a revo we are greatly reducing the guns firing pin energy and any movement of the primer before the anvil bottoms out eats part of that energy and can cause FTF. 

 

 

Yes just crank on main spring pressure till the gun will run your intended ammo 100% this is literally the only thing that matters nothing short of 100% matters.

 

How do you lighten your trigger? The key here is very likely your ammo, if you want a light trigger you will need to run federal primers that are fully seated. If you want a trigger in the 9ish pound range then you can probably get there with some other brands of primers, that are fully seated, if you want a trigger that will set off any ammo you happen to have you are going to be north of 10lb or so. Ammo is a large part of the equation in making a race revo run, there is no magic spring or part, that will let you have a 6lb trigger and run CCI primed factory ammo. 

 

the main spring brand is immaterial, I have both stock and wolf in guns they take the same tuning, its just a spring and is not the problem. 

light trigger = Federal primers fully seated the further from here you go the heavier you will need the action to be for full reliability.

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3 hours ago, Guitarmageddon said:

 this is a well worn gun that is already a performance center. Gun

 

Well worn is good but PC just means cam in a nicer box and made on a different production line don't be fooled into thinking there is any more care given to them at the factory

 

 

55 minutes ago, Guitarmageddon said:

Yea this was kind of what I was thinking. I think I may leave the trigger as is at around 50oz at the hammer and 8.5-9lbs at pull, and then slowly dial back with some federal reloads.

 

On a related note, I see some referencing very specific primer seating depths for federal. This is not something I have ever considered or fussed over with CCI/tula up to this point (factory hammers of course)

 

How would I best accommodate for this on my Dillon 550? Just get the feel for a good squish and make sure it's seated .00x inches past the head?

Just get good at feeling them seat hard, I know several people who make a point of pressing the handle to seat them twice for every round, I also believe some people put a shim on the frame where the primer punch hits to make sure the pin can go up far enough to fully seat the primmer.

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For some reason I’ve noticed WWB primers aren’t all the way seated. And inconsistent. 
 

Hornady hand seater will seat factory ammo primers nicely. 

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To answer the few that asked, at about 9lbs trigger and 50-55oz hammer, it would not set off FACTORY Winchester white box. But seemed to be on factory geco and federal "range and training. For my reloads, I did have issue on tula primers and CCI primers..more so with CCI. I have yet to reload with federal, I have both types of their SPP currently. I may whip some up this weekend paying special mind to a good seat. This gun has had virtually zero light strikes in the years I've owned it, with one or two on tula primers when I first learned to reload but that was it.  So maybe the factory hammer was a little more forgiving to primers a minute bit higher than a "deep seat".

 

I believe the factory trigger was around 10.5-11lbs but I was still learning the trigger scale at the time, until I got the method Down.

 

Any recommendations for an extended firing pin? I will likely tear the gun apart this weekend and see where the stock measures at, then report back.

 

I appreciate everyone's input. This has been a job Ive wanted to take on for years but have been too apprehensive about. No turning back now!

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3 hours ago, Guitarmageddon said:

Yea this was kind of what I was thinking. I think I may leave the trigger as is at around 50oz at the hammer and 8.5-9lbs at pull, and then slowly dial back with some federal reloads.

 

On a related note, I see some referencing very specific primer seating depths for federal. This is not something I have ever considered or fussed over with CCI/tula up to this point (factory hammers of course)

 

How would I best accommodate for this on my Dillon 550? Just get the feel for a good squish and make sure it's seated .00x inches past the head?

Yes just seat the heck out of it.  Then measure it with a dial caliper it will probably be .006 which is ok.  When I used my 550 that's what I did.  

At the least when you run your thumb across the case head, you must feel a depression at the primer pocket.

 

I now use a S1050 and it allows for a more precise seating of primers.  So I've started being picky about it.  But in reality as long as it is below flush it won't make a huge difference.

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2 hours ago, Guitarmageddon said:

To answer the few that asked, at about 9lbs trigger and 50-55oz hammer, it would not set off FACTORY Winchester white box. But seemed to be on factory geco and federal "range and training. For my reloads, I did have issue on tula primers and CCI primers..more so with CCI. I have yet to reload with federal, I have both types of their SPP currently. I may whip some up this weekend paying special mind to a good seat. This gun has had virtually zero light strikes in the years I've owned it, with one or two on tula primers when I first learned to reload but that was it.  So maybe the factory hammer was a little more forgiving to primers a minute bit higher than a "deep seat".

 

I believe the factory trigger was around 10.5-11lbs but I was still learning the trigger scale at the time, until I got the method Down.

 

Any recommendations for an extended firing pin? I will likely tear the gun apart this weekend and see where the stock measures at, then report back.

 

I appreciate everyone's input. This has been a job Ive wanted to take on for years but have been too apprehensive about. No turning back now!

I have seen brand new 929s that wont set of factory ammo as they came out of the box, there is a decent chance your firing pin is on the shorter end of the spectrum. 

I have been telling people for years Smith sells a nice revolver kit, they just stick all the parts together to make shipping easier 🙂

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3 hours ago, Guitarmageddon said:

To answer the few that asked, at about 9lbs trigger and 50-55oz hammer, it would not set off FACTORY Winchester white box. But seemed to be on factory geco and federal "range and training. For my reloads, I did have issue on tula primers and CCI primers..more so with CCI. I have yet to reload with federal, I have both types of their SPP currently. I may whip some up this weekend paying special mind to a good seat. This gun has had virtually zero light strikes in the years I've owned it, with one or two on tula primers when I first learned to reload but that was it.  So maybe the factory hammer was a little more forgiving to primers a minute bit higher than a "deep seat".

 

I believe the factory trigger was around 10.5-11lbs but I was still learning the trigger scale at the time, until I got the method Down.

 

Any recommendations for an extended firing pin? I will likely tear the gun apart this weekend and see where the stock measures at, then report back.

 

I appreciate everyone's input. This has been a job Ive wanted to take on for years but have been too apprehensive about. No turning back now!

Keep the factory firing pin until you’re on federal primers only. The factory pin is the ONLY pin that will stand up to dryfire and all types of primers, hard and soft. 

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3 minutes ago, MWP said:

Keep the factory firing pin until you’re on federal primers only. The factory pin is the ONLY pin that will stand up to dryfire and all types of primers, hard and soft. 

 

Interesting. So even just in terms of strength/longevity, the aftermarket options like power custom are more brittle?

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14 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

I have seen brand new 929s that wont set of factory ammo as they came out of the box, there is a decent chance your firing pin is on the shorter end of the spectrum. 

I have been telling people for years Smith sells a nice revolver kit, they just stick all the parts together to make shipping easier 🙂

Which to be fair is the exact same as all the other revolvers out there.

Check out the past revo posts. All the revos have to have something done to make them competition worthy.

Or are any of you shooting a stock gun and winning?

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13 minutes ago, Dr. Phil said:

Which to be fair is the exact same as all the other revolvers out there.

Check out the past revo posts. All the revos have to have something done to make them competition worthy.

Or are any of you shooting a stock gun and winning?

Shot my first steel challenge ever at a major match with the r8. It was after that match I realized a stock gun wouldn't cut it haha.

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1 hour ago, Guitarmageddon said:

 

Interesting. So even just in terms of strength/longevity, the aftermarket options like power custom are more brittle?

Some can take hits on all primers, some can be dry fired without worry. Only factory can do it all. 

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1 hour ago, Dr. Phil said:

Which to be fair is the exact same as all the other revolvers out there.

Check out the past revo posts. All the revos have to have something done to make them competition worthy.

Or are any of you shooting a stock gun and winning?

I shot a gun with 12lb trigger for a season of matches. The gun wasn’t stock, but the trigger wasn’t light. No real difference in points on paper with it. 

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I started out shooting local matches in the mid 80s with stock L and N frames. Steel and lots of bowling pins. Didn't know much back then about primers and neck tension and all that. Loaded whatever I had and shot a lot of cast bullets and such. Never even lightened the strain screw, just shot them. Back then Ruger had the Security Six. Nice gun, decent trigger. Several guys showed up at locals with Pythons. Smiths ruled the roost then .

Now though I probably wouldn't take a stock gun to compete seriously. 

I guess I too am spoiled by 6 1/2 lb trigger pulls and quick returns. Red dots and speed holsters.

Like an old friend used to say, "Live and learn. Die and forget it all!"

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Ok everyone. Loaded up my first batch of federal primers under some n32c and 147gr blue bullets RN. heading to the range to get some Chrono data of a new load recipe and God willing report back good reliability at sub 8lbs. However, if it doesn't, next step I plan is the firing pin. Will report my findings.

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Ok everyone, just a quick update....

 

Damn I need to hoard some federal primers because that made all the difference. WOW

 

So I got one FTF out off 100 rnds fired today of federal #100s, because I got a little too greedy and went sub 6.5 lbs. I settled on a trigger weight of 7-7.5lbs and a hammer fall of 30-35oz depending on how/where I measure it. I think I may crank it up jusssst a tad for extra assurance, and also will likely still do the extended firing pin.

 

I am reading writeups of other people that achieved 7.5lbs on all factory ammo and I just dont see how. However, with federal on this gun, that was the ticket. I really liked the 4.4gr off N32C under 147gr blue bullets RN today. Very accurate load, chrono around 780fps, super pleasant to shoot. 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Toolguy said:

Sounds like you've about got it sorted! Now you know what is the big deal about Federal primers.

Yea i think so too. However, I do want to see if the extended pin helps things any more? Cant hurt right?

 

Also want to make sure that the set screw I changed out for the original strain screw stays put, with the help of the loctite I put on.  

So from this point on, I have a few questions....

1) should there be any difference in reliability of primer strike between use of moon clips vs no clips? Assuming of course the moon clips are straight and not mangled
2) If I make it a few hundred rounds and only then get a FTF on a given spring tension, could you assume maybe I slipped up and didnt seat a primer fully, or would that be cause for your to check trigger weight, ensure things are still the same, and maybe tighten up a tad?

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