Just put a wolf reduced power mainspring in my r8.....thats it? Underwhelmed

[Guitarmageddon]

Hello all,

Firs time Ive gotten the backplate off my beloved R8. Wanted to start with just the reduced power main spring to see if things were any different. I replaced it, literally zero percieved difference. My fussy wheeler trigger gauge reports some reduction, but its all over the place on this gun.

 

Will I feel a reduced effort to pull one I start playing with the rebound springs, or that is ONLY on the trigger return those come into play?

 

I wonder if wolf sent me the wrong spring in the package, its literally identical in feel at any adjustment of the strain screw. This is odd and not what I expected. I suspect the stock pull was around 10-11 lbs.

 

EDIT- after fine tuning my methods with the trigger gauge, It seems it is currently sitting at 9.6 lbs after the new spring. not what I was expecting. not sure how much I can really get from dialing out the strain screw.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Guitarmageddon

[Guitarmageddon]

Ok after some more fine tuning I have the trigger consistently at 7.9lbs to 8.1lbs. I guess the problem is that its hard for me to percieve a difference? 

[revoman]

There are areas that need to be polished and a change in the rebound spring will help. Or just send to Pinnacle Custom or TK Custom and have a action job completed. 

What you have described above would almost be like putting high grade racing oil in your car and expect it to become a race car. It is a number of things that need to be done to get to that ultimate trigger. Do a search and you will find all sorts of advice and tips on how to get there. 

[Toolguy]

Make sure the gun still fires reliably with your ammo at that mainspring setting. If you dial out the strain screw, it will keep working it's way out while you're shooting unless you put blue or purple LocTite on it. Blue # 242, or purple #222. Once it sets, you can adjust the screw without using any heat. Just turn it to where you want it. I like to adjust in increments of 1/8 of a turn. Just so you know, it's a sideplate, not a backplate.

 

Get a selection of Wolff rebound springs. I would choose 11, 12, and 13 lb. . See which one of those is the lightest one that gives a good trigger return.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Toolguy

[Guitarmageddon]

I just threw in the wolf 13lb spring and it definitely changed the dynamic of how the tension is applied. I currently have the stock strain screw in there, but will likely purple / blue loctite it soon, once I take micrometer measurements of things and where reliable ignition is obtained. Once I put the 13lb rebound in, it basically required me to tighten the factory strain screw basically all the way in, to get roughly 7lb of pull. Ive got some set screws coming that I intend to file down and blue loctite once I find the right length. 

[pskys2]

Not all new/After Market Mainsprings are actually set for any particular weight.  I had a Bang that was set so light that it "knuckled" and made the gun inoperable.  Others were set heavy.  You may well need to adjust it yourself.  Not hard Toolguy, think it was him, recommended that you trace the existing arch on paper for reference.  Then the more the bend the lighter the pull.

Then use a trigger gauge to measure the hammer fall.  For wsp probably need 50+oz fall, for Feds you can go as low as 32 oz.  Then match a lighter rebound spring to that mainspring until you feel right.

Oh and certain things need polished.  There are vids and info on that.

[MikeBurgess]

most seem to have the best luck by setting your main spring tension for reliable ignition THEN playing with rebound springs for pull weight vs rebound feel, you really want to do it in this order because as you change the main spring tension the rebound feel changes, changing rebound springs should have no affect on your ignition, if it does then you have other issues to track down

 

 

 

[Guitarmageddon]

7 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

Not all new/After Market Mainsprings are actually set for any particular weight.  I had a Bang that was set so light that it "knuckled" and made the gun inoperable.  Others were set heavy.  You may well need to adjust it yourself.  Not hard Toolguy, think it was him, recommended that you trace the existing arch on paper for reference.  Then the more the bend the lighter the pull.

Then use a trigger gauge to measure the hammer fall.  For wsp probably need 50+oz fall, for Feds you can go as low as 32 oz.  Then match a lighter rebound spring to that mainspring until you feel right.

Oh and certain things need polished.  There are vids and info on that.

When you say 32 or 50oz for fall, are you referring to the SA pull? Ive got it roughly 7-7.5lbs for todays range testing session as a starting point. 

[pskys2]

19 minutes ago, Guitarmageddon said:

When you say 32 or 50oz for fall, are you referring to the SA pull? Ive got it roughly 7-7.5lbs for todays range testing session as a starting point. 

No.  ignore the trigger pull at this point.  Put the hook of the trigger gauge on the hammer between the forward face of the hammer and the frame.  Pull the trigger Double Action method and when it releases the hammer measure the force it takes to keep the hammer from falling.  Keep your finger holding the trigger back all the way though so there's nothing interfering with the hammer.

Some measure the weight to keep the hammer near the center of its arc, others will measure it at full arch (just after it is released by the trigger and can go forward).  I tend to do the center of the travel as it's easier to get a consistent reading to me.

For instance my 627's are both set up with a C&S extended FP (.509" total length), 36 oz hammer fall using a TK light weight hammer (they are the lightest I've found and for CF the lighter the better for ignition), an 11 lb rebound cut to .960" length which gives me a 4.75 action.  If used with Fed Primers seated .008" to .011" I've had no failures.  I've even used this with WSP & Fiocchi Primers with only an occasional failure (1 in 100 rounds) good for practice but not for a match. 

If you are using a stock hammer, you will most likely have to go up to 40 oz on the hammer fall, but all else above worked when I was still using the stock hammer (weighs 1.15 oz) and gave an total action weight of 5 1/2 lbs.

If you run a search you can find quite a bit of good information that Toolguy has posted and some more detailed info I've posted.

Edited July 29, 2021 by pskys2

[Guitarmageddon]

2 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

 

For instance my 627's are both set up with a C&S extended FP (.509" total length), 36 oz hammer, an 11 lb rebound cut to .960" length which gives me a 4.75 action.  If used with Fed Primers seated .008" to .011" I've had no failures.  I've even used this with WSP & Fiocchi Primers with only an occasional fail

 

4 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

No.  ignore the trigger pull at this point.  Put the hook of the trigger gauge on the hammer between the forward face of the hammer and the frame.  Pull the trigger Double Action method and when it releases the hammer measure the force it takes to keep the hammer from falling.  Keep your finger holding the trigger back all the way though so there's nothing interfering with the hammer.

Some measure the weight to keep the hammer near the center of its arc, others will measure it at full arch (just after it is released by the trigger and can go forward).  I tend to do the center of the travel as it's easier to get a consistent reading to me.

For instance my 627's are both set up with a C&S extended FP (.509" total length), 36 oz hammer, an 11 lb rebound cut to .960" length which gives me a 4.75 action.  If used with Fed Primers seated .008" to .011" I've had no failures.  I've even used this with WSP & Fiocchi Primers with only an occasional failure (1 in 100 rounds) good for practice but not for a match.

If you run a search you can find quite a bit of good information that Toolguy has posted and some more detailed info I've posted.

If ive taken your hammer measurment right Im pretty close to 4lbs. still pretty heavy right?

[pskys2]

Just now, Guitarmageddon said:

 

If ive taken your hammer measurment right Im pretty close to 4lbs. still pretty heavy right?

4 lbs of hammer fall is 64 oz.  I will use close to that for an EDC Revolver (325 TR) and set everything a bit heavier for a 7 1/2 lb action.

With a stock hammer you should be ok above 48 oz, which is 3 lbs.

[Guitarmageddon]

Just now, pskys2 said:

4 lbs of hammer fall is 64 oz.  I will use close to that for an EDC Revolver (325 TR) and set everything a bit heavier for a 7 1/2 lb action.

With a stock hammer you should be ok above 48 oz, which is 3 lbs.

Ok scratch that I was getting the hang of that measurment method, I got roughly 3lbs, give or take some. 

[pskys2]

Just now, Guitarmageddon said:

Ok scratch that I was getting the hang of that measurment method, I got roughly 3lbs, give or take some. 

I've been doing what Toolguy suggested, set my hammer heavy say 52+oz at the least when bottomed out.  Then back off the strain screw 1/4 turn seemed to drop the hammer fall 4 oz.  So if using the stock hammer back out the strain screw 3/4 turn, this should give you 40 oz.  then go shoot.  If you get a failure to fire, crank it up 1/4 turn.   Then after several hundred rounds with no failures, fine tune it a bit with maybe a 1/8 turn back.

Once you are to the point that you're as light on the hammer as possible with no FTF's then you can adjust the rebound spring to give you the "feel" you like.  Some want a very positive return, some want it to be as light as possible without any hitches.

I tend to like a return heavy enough to reliably return the trigger even with a 48 oz action.  Just in case I have weird issues at a match, remember Murphy is always lurking at matches!

[Guitarmageddon]

3 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

I've been doing what Toolguy suggested, set my hammer heavy say 52+oz at the least when bottomed out.  Then back off the strain screw 1/4 turn seemed to drop the hammer fall 4 oz.  So if using the stock hammer back out the strain screw 3/4 turn, this should give you 40 oz.  then go shoot.  If you get a failure to fire, crank it up 1/4 turn.   Then after several hundred rounds with no failures, fine tune it a bit with maybe a 1/8 turn back.

Once you are to the point that you're as light on the hammer as possible with no FTF's then you can adjust the rebound spring to give you the "feel" you like.  Some want a very positive return, some want it to be as light as possible without any hitches.

I tend to like a return heavy enough to reliably return the trigger even with a 48 oz action.  Just in case I have weird issues at a match, remember Murphy is always lurking at matches!

So if I still couldnt get the hammer fall heavier with an acceptable trigger feel, and reliablity of ignition, do I have to go to a heavier hammer? Im trying to keep it stock at the moment. Hopefully i phrased that question correctly, still learning some of the revolver trigger work quirks

[Toolguy]

For reliability of ignition with lightest hammer fall, you need to check the firing pin length. The shortest you want is .495, which is the longest factory ones I've seen. You may need to get an extended firing pin. Those range from around .500 to around .510.

[pskys2]

19 minutes ago, Guitarmageddon said:

So if I still couldnt get the hammer fall heavier with an acceptable trigger feel, and reliablity of ignition, do I have to go to a heavier hammer? Im trying to keep it stock at the moment. Hopefully i phrased that question correctly, still learning some of the revolver trigger work quirks

No.  The feel of the action is the balance between the hammer fall/ignition reliability and the rebound pressure.

The weight of the hammer does not affect that feel, it does affect the reliability of ignition.  On CF Revolvers the lighter the hammer weight the slightly better ignition with the same weight of hammer fall.  

With a stock hammer you should be able, with well seated Federal Primers, get reliable ignition at 40 ozs hammer fall.

After you have that set you decrease the rebound spring until you like the feel of the trigger return of the action.  Too light and the trigger will hang up and not reset.  Too heavy and you lose the benefits of a lighter action.

So, for now:

Stick with you stock hammer

Check the FP total length, if it's .500' or longer you're good, if under .490" try an extended firing pin from C&S, TK or Apex.

Adjust your Mainspring to a 42oz hammer fall by bending the mainspring, making sure to leave at least 1/2 turn available for the strain screw to seat fully.  Use Blue 242 Loc-Tite on the Strain Screw for now.  Once you're happy with it you can get a spare strain screw (I like having several on hand) and trim it for the proper weight while seated fully.  Then I keep a spare that I can swap in, if things start acting up.

Use an 11 lb (Wolf is what I'm sure I'm using) rebound spring.   I like to get the multiple pack of 11 lbs from Midway or Brownells so I can trim one back for the feel I like.  Don't go shorter than .950" though.

Make sure you back off the strain screw "Before" removing the side plate though.  Not doing so will ultimately end in a broken Trigger Stud and a trip to S&W.

Edited July 29, 2021 by pskys2

[Guitarmageddon]

42 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

 

Make sure you back off the strain screw "Before" removing the side plate though.  Not doing so will ultimately end in a broken Trigger Stud and a trip to S&W.

Thank you for the advice. I did also not know this and twice today took it off before relaxing the spring. Good information. Once I get the guts worked up to take the firing pin out I will confirm that length. 

[Guitarmageddon]

59 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

So, for now:

Stick with you stock hammer

Check the FP total length, if it's .500' or longer you're good, if under .490" try an extended firing pin from C&S, TK or Apex.

Adjust your Mainspring to a 42oz hammer fall by bending the mainspring, making sure to leave at least 1/2 turn available for the strain screw to seat fully. 

When you talk about bending the mainspring, are you talking about me taking some of the bend out, or adding "pre-bend" in, or are you simply referring to cranking the strain screw til that hammer fall weight. 

[Toolguy]

You can add or subtract bend in the spring itself, and/or adjust it with the strain screw. Make any bends with a big radius. The nice thing about the set screws is they don't have a head, so you are free to go in or out as far as needed to get where you want to be. Sometimes you may need to bend the spring to get around a grip screw that goes through the middle of the grip panels, or may want more or less tension with the regular strain screw, etc.

 

There are some people on other forums that have a heart attack if you propose to alter your gun in any way from how it was originally shipped. Ignore them. You will never have a good action by leaving everything stock. Most of them are just parrots that repeat what they have heard from somewhere else. For example - You have to have the strain screw all the way in so the head is tight. True, if you don't have LocTite, false if you have some. Or - Only use one drop of Loctite. One drop is usually not enough. Clean the threads well with solvent, let dry, then coat threads with how ever much it takes. Assemble parts, wipe off excess. Use a Q-Tip to get in small spaces. There is nothing else around the strain screw that it can get into and cause a problem.

Edited July 29, 2021 by Toolguy

[Guitarmageddon]

3 minutes ago, Toolguy said:

You can add or subtract bend in the spring itself, and/or adjust it with the strain screw. Make any bends with a big radius. The nice thing about the set screws is they don't have a head, so you are free to go in or out as far as needed to get where you want to be.

 

There are some people on other forums that have a heart attack if you propose to alter your gun in any way from how it was originally shipped. Ignore them. You will never have a good action by leaving everything stock. Most of them are just parrots that repeat what they have heard from somewhere else. For example - You have to have the strain screw all the way in so the head is tight. True, if you don't have LocTite, false if you have some. Or - Only use one drop of Loctite. One drop is usually not enough. Clean the threads well with solvent, let dry, then coat threads with how ever much it takes. Assemble parts, wipe off excess. Use a Q-Tip to get in small spaces. There is nothing else around the strain screw that it can get into and cause a problem.

 

So how about this concept.... if I have a great trigger weight/feel, lets say 7.5 lbs. But the hammer fall weight is shy, lets say its something like 36oz and I want to be closer to 40-45 as you say, if not more. Would I then maybe take some prebend OUT of the main spring but crank down on the strain screw to add tension back in? or would I add pre bend IN to the spring, but relax the strain screw. Im sensing this is a fine balancing act.... 

 

And as a final/last option, I would begin to play with actual different hammers/ weights then right? 

[Toolguy]

You don't need to worry about different hammers unless you're trying to get under about 6.5 lb. DA trigger pull.

 

Using a setscrew with Loctite in the threads, adjust the mainspring tension to get as light as it will reliable fire whatever ammo you have. You can always readjust for different ammo later if needed. Once you get that done, put in the lightest rebound spring that resets the trigger in a positive manner. That is the lightest trigger pull you will get with that gun and ammo. Every gun is an individual entity. No 2 will be exactly the same, even if they were next to each other on the production line. They will be close enough that any difference won't matter.

[Guitarmageddon]

14 minutes ago, Toolguy said:

You don't need to worry about different hammers unless you're trying to get under about 6.5 lb. DA trigger pull.

 

Using a setscrew with Loctite in the threads, adjust the mainspring tension to get as light as it will reliable fire whatever ammo you have. You can always readjust for different ammo later if needed. Once you get that done, put in the lightest rebound spring that resets the trigger in a positive manner. That is the lightest trigger pull you will get with that gun and ammo. Every gun is an individual entity. No 2 will be exactly the same, even if they were next to each other on the production line. They will be close enough that any difference won't matter.

Thanks! I think I'm overcomplicating this a bit ...

 

A couple more questions.

 

I have both regular Federal primers as well as gold medal match small pistol primers. I was trying to tune the spring to give me good reliability with my various factory ammo and other brands of primers before I started down the "super light Federal" route. When they make the reference about Federal primers being soft do they mean all of them in general or specifically the gold medal match?

 

And second whether I am trying to get below 7 lb or not when is it imperative that I have the extended firing pin? Is it in general just good insurance to have by installing one no matter what?

[MikeBurgess]

There is no difference other than better QC between match and regular federals

 

I have a couple guns that I run around 6.5 with factory firing pins so not imperative, 

 

the big thing is set your main spring (however you want to, bend it , shorten strain screw, locktite strain screw) for 100% ignition while testing this you literally do not care about your trigger pull weight just that the ammo goes off all the time. THEN play with your rebound spring to get the pull feel you like. longer firing pins and lighter hammers will change how much main spring tension you need to get the ignition to 100% but the same applies do the work then set it up to run then set it up for feel. 

you may have noticed I have yet to mention test trigger pull weight in this process, that's because it doesn't matter, many find that they much prefer a pull weight that is higher and has a nice snappy positive reset some prefer a lower pull weight with a soft reset, the weight is really not a big deal. 

 

and remember 100% reliable means no light strikes ever, not its okay if I only get one once in a while. I run my strain screw about 1/4 turn in from runs, unless I totally mess up my ammo I dont have light strikes.

 

 

[Toolguy]

All the Federal primers are soft, even the magnum pistol. The extended firing pin will let you go lower than the factory in most cases, but it depends on the plus and minus tolerances of the individual gun. Some guns will run fine with a factory firing pin. To me, it's added insurance.

[pskys2]

Everything you need is in these posts. 

Just take it slow and 1 step at a time.

Reliability first

Then what feels best

 

As a side note all the rounds fired to test these issues out, will definitely make you a better shooter.

 

Depending on where you are, we may be able to test each other some day!

Edited July 29, 2021 by pskys2