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NateMorris7

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17 minutes ago, NateMorris7 said:

I have shot multiple other disciplines and am decent at all of them without paying someone to train me. would it help me, of course, but so early into this type of shooting it would be a waste because 90% of it would not be understood or retained due to lack of situational experience. If I am not even comfortable with the gun yet, why would i go through the pain of a class where I am expected to be able to hit all A's under 0 pressure. 

 

Unbelievable.....

 

A guy who sucks so bad with a pistol that he zeroes every stage tries to argue why training won't help him.

 

I'm done here

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4 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Unbelievable.....

 

A guy who sucks so bad with a pistol that he zeroes every stage tries to argue why training won't help him.

 

I'm done here

 Take your rude self to someone elses post to troll. If you cant have a conversation, don't start talking. 

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22 minutes ago, NateMorris7 said:

I really dont get the push for paying for training. Understanding and implementing shooting fundamentals are 2 very different things. I didnt say I was worried about classification, I was more wondering why even bother shooting them. Much of shooting is mental, and while I understand that, it is not so easy for me to overcome. I have shot multiple other disciplines and am decent at all of them without paying someone to train me. would it help me, of course, but so early into this type of shooting it would be a waste because 90% of it would not be understood or retained due to lack of situational experience. If I am not even comfortable with the gun yet, why would i go through the pain of a class where I am expected to be able to hit all A's under 0 pressure. 

 

Its all just conversation and conjecture. I am not by any means saying I need to get a certain classification, I just don't see wasting the ammo for something so trivial. 

You're looking at the classifiers completely wrong. Just think of them as stages; you're right, at this point if you get a classification it's going to be D.  So it goes. But you clearly need practice and experience, and shooting classifiers, like any other stage, will give you that. Classifiers are designed to be a test of certain skills, so shooting them might at least help you figure out what you need to work on. However, if you don't at least have some fundamentals, it's going to be a waste of time and ammo.  You can shoot stages all day long but if your grip sucks and you don't know it, you will never improve.  That's where paying for training can come in.

 

If you're really "not even comfortable" with your gun yet, you shouldn't even be shooting matches. You should be at the range getting comfortable with it. You should also be scouring YouTube for videos from people like Bob Vogel, Max Michel, Ben Stoeger, and other shooters/instructors. There is a ton of information out there for the taking on everything from the proper grip, movement, reloads, stage planning, etc. Watch and try to learn, get comfortable with your pistol and at least get a decent grip, and then you might not feel like you're wasting your time so much.  And lower your expectations. You're going to suck for a while.

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48 minutes ago, NateMorris7 said:

If I am not even comfortable with the gun yet, why would i go through the pain of a class where I am expected to be able to hit all A's under 0 pressure. 

You go through a class to learn so you’ll get comfortable with the gun. 
 

However, by reading your posts, it seems to me that you’re thinking the other way around. Instead of thinking about the pain in going through a class,  think of the benefits you’ll get. You got great responses and tips on improving based on your posts but I don’t see any willingness on your part to try what’s being suggested. Give it a try. You can even ask people in your squad for tips. As long as you’re willing to try to learn new things and put in the work, I guarantee your shooting will improve. I know I did.

 

 

Edited by George16
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29 minutes ago, NateMorris7 said:

If I am not even comfortable with the gun yet, why would i go through the pain of a class where I am expected to be able to hit all A's under 0 pressure. 

 

That is not what classes with most competent dynamic shooting sports instructors are about.  Those classes will point out you issues with your discomfort with the gun and how to train to fix those issues.  You are never expected to hit all A's in those classes.  Most classes break down every part of the sport so you understand how to train properly versus improperly to fix issues.  

 

You don't ever have to shoot anything in a match.  You can not shoot and receive a zero for the stage. Although you insinuate that zeroed stages bother you in a post above.  In the end classifiers exist to rank you against other shooters nationally.  That is it.  People do not belong to USPSA and still participate for numerous reasons are not classified and could care less about classification.  If you shoot against the same people who shoot consistent matches you can grade if your abilities are getting better or not by looking at their scores versus your scores on Practicsore.  

 

This forum is to help people obtain information to aid their ability to accel in dynamic shooting sports, mostly revolving around pistol shooting, with 3 gun and other rifle related items sprinkled in.  The reason people are on this forum is to help them understand the sport and get better overall as a shooter involving shooting in matches.  While it can help people looking to just "improve" their shooting abilities in general, one needs to understand that all questions will be answered with these shooting disciplines and shooting in matches in mind because that is what this forum  revolves around.  Classification is a part of the sport and typically there is always going to be at least one classifier of some sort at each match.  Your first couple of posts insinuate you want to get better at shooting USPSA, hence the answers you are going to get are from others sharing the experiences in how to get better quicker and how to avoid the training mistakes they made.  If you feel you just want to get better shooting under pressure there might be other forums better suited for your questions.  

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well I shot the match with the classifiers, and another match since then. The classifier match I had some minor improvement (read as HF of 2 vs 0). The classifiers were 99-11 and 99-22 so no movement, which could be another major factor. Then the match this week it all went downhill again and back to three 0 stages. It was pointed out to me that I may not be seeing the target and the dot, although thats not how it feels to me. Of course I have only these 4 matches ever shooting an optic so I dont really know. I dont have the money for a training class, but I can see what you all mean now. I thought of the training classes as teaching a proficient shot how to go and shoot faster, not how to shoot in the first place. I have watched the Vogel videos on grip and am trying to mimic it, but if i look at the dot on a target it is all shaky, and thats not even moving or after recoil. It is definitely totally different than I expected going in (read as I watched too many JJ and Max videos and went "I got this") 

 

I apologize if I was dismissive to anyone that gave inputs, I definitely let my ego from my current shooting status get in the way of a new discipline. 

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Ask one of the guys at the match to take a look at your grip and stance at the safe table before the next match, just to be sure you aren't doing something completely wrong. It's much harder to unlearn bad habits after you've cemented them in.

Then buy Steve Anderson's Refinement and Repetition book and follow the directions. It takes about 30 minutes a day of dry fire to complete the drills in his book. 

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3 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Ask one of the guys at the match to take a look at your grip and stance at the safe table before the next match, just to be sure you aren't doing something completely wrong. It's much harder to unlearn bad habits after you've cemented them in.

Then buy Steve Anderson's Refinement and Repetition book and follow the directions. It takes about 30 minutes a day of dry fire to complete the drills in his book. 

Ill check the book out. I am worried about dry fire because of possible poor grip or something else, but I definitely need practice.  I have Brian Enos shooting fundamentals, but apparently it did not help me as much as I thought. I should prob reread it too...

 

My Area (Connecticut) has very few shooters, and the 2 clubs in the area are both less than a year old as far as I know.

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1 hour ago, NateMorris7 said:

It was pointed out to me that I may not be seeing the target and the dot, although thats not how it feels to me. Of course I have only these 4 matches ever shooting an optic so I dont really know.

 

You need to approach this in a completely different manner if you are scoring a lot of mikes.  Go slower for now.  Get hits on paper.  From the sounds of it your grip (indicated by the dot shaking) is an issue, I would imagine your recoil management is poor, as well as having a poor trigger pull.  It sounds like you are not even using the dot as an aiming device and just pointing the gun at the target and indiscriminately pulling the trigger as mentioned above. 

 

There are plenty of online resources free to help you with this.  I would strongly recommend as @waktasz mentioned having someone at the match help you diagnose what you are doing incorrect and how to correct them so you do not dry fire bad technique into habits or muscle memory in regards to grip and trigger pull.  Start with this as these are the basics.  Once you have these down and start getting hits on paper then move on to other training aspects, as movement, transitions etc.

 

One of the biggest issues for new shooters just about anyone will tell you is proper grip and trigger control.  Without these basic techniques trained properly you will never advance as a shooter.  Its what I struggle with today.  I may start with a great grip, but as the course of fire progresses, removing my off hand form the gun to move or performing reloads, I still struggle to have the appropriate grip once I regrip the gun with the off hand.  I can diagnose this typically by group size on the targets.  If my groups are wildly wide its almost always due to a poor grip.  

 

1 hour ago, NateMorris7 said:

if i look at the dot on a target it is all shaky, and thats not even moving or after recoil.

 

With the dot shaking this usually comes from gripping too hard or extremely to lax, if the dot is not moving due to body movement and/or recoil.  During dry fire once you figure out what a proper grip is you can look at the dot on the wall (if you have to put a target on the wall or just a paster or piece of tape) and play with grip tension until the dot is steady.  It most likely will not ever be perfectly still, but it should have minimal movement for what should be as hard as you can grip the gun to create minimal movement.  Once your grip is sorted out then you can move onto trigger pull using the same drill only pull the trigger while observing the dot.  If the dot moves during the trigger pull, diagnose why the dot move, correct and move on.  The dot itself is great tool to diagnose aspects of grip and trigger pull.  

 

Again plenty of online content to help you with these basic items.  

 

Many people do not have enough money for classes.  That's completely understandable but I cannot stress enough how helpful and how much material is on Stoeger's Practical Shooting Training Group.  For the basic membership ($25/month) you get access from great instructors you can trust and interact with the instructors and other proficient shooters, to work through every aspect of shooting in Dynamic shooting sports.  You keep paying to shoot matches when maybe some of that money should be spent on training versus beating your head against a wall and coming away with no answers to the problems you are experiencing in the matches.  

 

It's long journey.  Good luck.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Maybe check out this book.

 

https://benstoegerproshop.com/practical-shooting-training-by-ben-stoeger-joel-park/

 

It has different levels in it. The first level is directed towards people trykmg to get through a stage without a penalty (Miss/no shoot). It goes all the way up to gm.

 

It should at least get you started in a good direction. So you're not completely blind.

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