first shoot

[NateMorris7]

So I shot USPSA for the first time yesterday. Luckily a club started up recently locally and the gentlemen running it does training nights as well as shoots so it was just a training night. I have a Glock 17L with a swampfox optic on it for Carry Optics. I have previously only shot about 50 rounds through this gun and this is my fist ever optic. He does an incredible job giving pointers and taking us through the course of fire and stopping to show what we should have done when. I can say that I had a lot of trouble with trying to keep the optic in the hit box while taking the shot and trying to be constantly on the move. It is a totally new experience to me and I am looking forward to doing more. I am trying to watch youtube and glean any information to help myself in this new interest. Definitely need a lot more time behind the gun.  

[Flea]

Lots of info on here for free.

 

https://www.practicalshootingtraininggroup.com/forums/ has lots of great stuff and will cost some $ and also https://www.patreon.com/trainwithmax/posts has great stuff and will cost some $ (Max is one of the best in the world and mainly shoots in carry optics.).

[Boomstick303]

35 minutes ago, NateMorris7 said:

I had a lot of trouble with trying to keep the optic in the hit box while taking the shot and trying to be constantly on the move.

 

If you mean keeping the dot on the glass and visible to the eye when you are referring to "hit box", You can fix a lot of this though dry fire training and proper grip.  

 

Indexing the gun properly to the eye helps you prevent fishing for the dot once you are looking through the optic.  Dry fire draws and presenting the gun at different angles.  Some make the mistake of only training draws when they are training indexing the pistol for proper view of the dot in the optic.  There are many instances during movement that require the shooter to index the gun from position other than drawing it from the holster.

 

Proper grip helps minimize recoil that prevents the dot from leaving the glass during recoil.  The Swampfox optics are a nice beginner unit, but have minimal glass height.  When using dots with minimal glass height proper grip and recoil control becomes even more important for Carry Optics.  If you are using proper grip and recoil control, the muzzle movement is minimal, and predictably moving vertically up and down during recoil.  The perceived returning of the dot onto the glass will be predictable.  If the muzzle is moving all different directions during recoil the perception of the dot returning back onto the glass will be in unpredictable angles. 

 

The problem even with proper grip is dynamic shooting sports require a shooter to shoot the gun in strange angles which could lead to a compromised grip, or the gun to recoil in other than vertical angles, leading to unpredictable dot return on the glass, for optics with minimal glass height.  Unfortunately the only way to train this is through live fire drills.  This is why most Carry Optic shooters upgrade to optics with bigger glass.  Its more fore forgiving in this aspect and allows the dot to stay visible through the entire recoil process regardless the return angle of the dot as long as the gun is gripped properly.   

Edited July 21, 2021 by Boomstick303

[NateMorris7]

53 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

If you mean keeping the dot on the glass and visible to the eye when you are referring to "hit box", You can fix a lot of this though dry fire training and proper grip.  

 

Indexing the gun properly to the eye helps you prevent fishing for the dot once you are looking through the optic.  Dry fire draws and presenting the gun at different angles.  Some make the mistake of only training draws when they are training indexing the pistol for proper view of the dot in the optic.  There are many instances during movement that require the shooter to index the gun from position other than drawing it from the holster.

 

Proper grip helps minimize recoil that prevents the dot from leaving the glass during recoil.  The Swampfox optics are a nice beginner unit, but have minimal glass height.  When using dots with minimal glass height proper grip and recoil control becomes even more important for Carry Optics.  If you are using proper grip and recoil control, the muzzle movement is minimal, and predictably moving vertically up and down during recoil.  The perceived returning of the dot onto the glass will be predictable.  If the muzzle is moving all different directions during recoil the perception of the dot returning back onto the glass will be in unpredictable angles. 

 

The problem even with proper grip is dynamic shooting sports require a shooter to shoot the gun in strange angles which could lead to a compromised grip, or the gun to recoil in other than vertical angles, leading to unpredictable dot return on the glass, for optics with minimal glass height.  Unfortunately the only way to train this is through live fire drills.  This is why most Carry Optic shooters upgrade to optics with bigger glass.  Its more fore forgiving in this aspect and allows the dot to stay visible through the entire recoil process regardless the return angle of the dot as long as the gun is gripped properly.   

By hitbox, I meant the "A" zone of the target. The dot was on the glass easily enough, but it was moving around like playing with a laser pointer with a cat. just all over the glass, not lined up with the target. I am very new to all of this and I can guarantee my grip is terrible, its just hard to start shooting live fire and know how to correct for each mistake I am making at once. I had a terrible time with the steel, taking like 5 shots or more to hit the first one, then the next 2 I could get on the first shot. Even slowing down for that, the dot was on the target, but I must be jerking the trigger. it also felt easier with a full mag, so I probably need a grip weight to help with the recoil when the mag is empty. I understand working on grip and draw from holster, but I don't get how to train for trigger control dry firing because you don't have the action of the gun moving.  

[RJH]

I'm pretty sure the 17L is not legal for carryops. You might want to check that before you go to a real match. It could be on the list now, but I know for a long time it was not

 

 

[Sarge]

27 minutes ago, RJH said:

I'm pretty sure the 17L is not legal for carryops. You might want to check that before you go to a real match. It could be on the list now, but I know for a long time it was not

 

 

Still not legal

Glock

Website: www.glock.com

Notes: (L models are not approved) 

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, NateMorris7 said:

 I don't get how to train for trigger control dry firing because you don't have the action of the gun moving.  

 

Trigger control is all about everything that happens right up to the point that the pistol fires, so the action not moving is irrelevant.

 

You have the greatest aid to trigger control dry fire right on top of your pistol: a red dot sight.

 

Cock the pistol, aim at a blank wall, focus your eyes on the wall (the dot will still be in your field of view) and press the trigger.  Notice everything the dot does as far as movement all the way to the point where the trigger breaks, and then notice what the dot does as the trigger breaks.

 

PS, grip is a huge component of a correct trigger press

 

PPS, did I mention your eyes to focus on the target, NOT on the dot?  Yeah that's critically important.

 

You really should pay for training from someone who really knows what he or she is doing or you're going to seriously retard your progress.  Ask me how I know........

 

PPPS, yes the Glock 17L is not a legal handgun for USPSA, nor IDPA.  At your monthly local match I doubt anyone is going to care since you're new, but out of respect for the rules of the sport you should buy a pistol that complies with them.  If you like the 17L, the Glock 34 is probably the closest one that meet the rules.  You could also replace the slide and barrel of your 17L with those of a Glock 34, that should be cheaper and is still kosher.

 

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[Boomstick303]

15 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

You really should pay for training from someone who really knows what he or she is doing or you're going to seriously retard your progress.  Ask me how I know........

 

^^^YUP^^^

[NateMorris7]

Well that is seriously depressing that my 17L which is basically a 34 isn’t legal. I can barely afford the ammo prices after buying all the magazines and gear I definitely can’t afford a new slide and barrel with rmr cut…. 

[Sarge]

1 minute ago, NateMorris7 said:

Well that is seriously depressing that my 17L which is basically a 34 isn’t legal. I can barely afford the ammo prices after buying all the magazines and gear I definitely can’t afford a new slide and barrel with rmr cut…. 

Probably can sell or trade it easily for a 17. Really no need EVEN for G34 length in CO

[RJH]

I agree trading it would probably be best, but if you want to use the optic you can always shoot it in open and if not you can shoot it in limited. Won't matter for a while either way regardless

Edited July 21, 2021 by RJH

[SGT_Schultz]

20 minutes ago, NateMorris7 said:

Well that is seriously depressing that my 17L which is basically a 34 isn’t legal. I can barely afford the ammo prices after buying all the magazines and gear I definitely can’t afford a new slide and barrel with rmr cut…. 

 

17Ls are somewhat rare, I think you won't have trouble finding someone to sell or trade.

Edited July 21, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[NateMorris7]

Well I should be ok because I miss spoke earlier. It’s a Polymer80 which is on the list, making that null, but confusing.

Edited July 21, 2021 by NateMorris7

[Sarge]

17 minutes ago, NateMorris7 said:

Well I should be ok because I miss spoke earlier. It’s a Polymer80 which is on the list, making that null, but confusing.

What is on the slide?

[NateMorris7]

Just now, Sarge said:

What is on the slide?

Nothing, it’s aftermarket. Not a glock brand slide. 

[Sarge]

Hmmm ok. So it wasn’t a 17L and you didn’t realize that? You should be good to go then

[NateMorris7]

8 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Hmmm ok. So it wasn’t a 17L and you didn’t realize that? You should be good to go then

I just call it a 17L for ease because that’s what it’s modeled after I guess. 

[NateMorris7]

well i shot my first scored match on tuesday.... and I scored 0 points. 

 

we shot 3 stages

 

stage 1 was 8 paper. i got 50 points and had 3 mike and 2 no shoot, so 0 points/time = 0  ok, never done this before. trying to go too fast.

stage 2 was 6 paper 3 steel. i got 46 points and had 4 mike and 1 no shoot, so -4 points/time = 0 again. wow this is a lot harder than it looks.

stage 3 was 13 paper 3 steel. i got 90 points... and 90 penalty points......... 0 again... i really suck at shooting pistol... i need a totally different approach here.

 

i guess starting CO with a P80 and swampfox isnt the best idea, but i dont have the money to spend on a new gun, optic, mags, holster and everything. its just what i had that could work. i also know that the gun isnt to blame for my poor accuracy. maybe the optic is, but more 99% me. I just dont even know where to start over at to train myself to hit better. i know the idea would be to slow down, but I feel like movement is more important to understand and keep up than to slow down to hit, then try to figure out how to speed back up and still hit... maybe im wrong.

[Nathanb]

The gun isn’t the limiting factor. It’s your newness and lack of shooting experience.  You’ll be a while before you outrun your gun

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, NateMorris7 said:

i guess starting CO with a P80 and swampfox isnt the best idea

 

People start with less.  Right now you are putting way too much emphasis on equipment.  Beginners have so much to work on equipment is the farthest thing that should be on your mind as long as it works correctly.  Plus if you get accurate and fast with a crap trigger you will be much better off in the long run.  

 

People tend to start in one of two boats.  Hosers (people who shoot too fast and have almost zero accuracy) and Turtles.  Turtles are people who are extremely slow to slow but get their hits (are very accurate).  You are obviously a hoser.  You will need to be working on accuracy.  Yes this means slowing down typically.  Almost any gun is accurate enough for the sport we play as long as its maintained, use decent ammo, and is zeroed properly.  Then is is up to the shooter to have proper trigger control and grip to obtain accuracy.  If you do not know where to begin and money is tight, I cannot recommend Ben Stoeger's Practical Shooting Training Group enough.  For let than the price of a box of ammo a month (at current prices) you gain tons of training material.  Forums similar to this one to discuss training strategies etc.   You can learn so much through dry fire, which is free and then it can be verified through live fire.  Another great source is Steve Anderson.  Read books.  Ben Stoeger has numerous books.  I found Charlie Perez's book "Path of Focused Effort", very useful to help know where to start.  I also took his class which helped immensely.  

 

You journey is just starting.  I consider myself a noob myself as in I have been shooting for only two years, have lots to learn, but I have learned how to analyze what I am doing wrong and what drills to do to correct those issues.  That web site helps you learn that.  If that is too expensive there is a ton of great material free on You Tube.   Be mindful of who you follow on there.  If you start digging you will quickly find who is at the top of the sport and knows what they are talking about.  In the beginning books and classes are going to be the most useful.  I waited a year until I really dug into these resources and regretted waiting a year.   I should have shot a couple of matches then started using these resources instead of waiting a year. 

 

The typical path in getting better is shoot accurate at a certain speed, then speed up.  Yes your hits will suffer, but you will never know what to fix until you operate at that faster speed.  Once your hits are acceptable at that current speed then speed up again to where hits suffer, then repeat the process.  

 

There is another method that few use where they go at break neck speeds (where the wheels fall off), and analyze what they are doing wrong and fix it using their own eyes during the run or analyzing the run mentally while looking at the target they had a mike, miss, NS, or wide charlie/delta on.  With this method you have to be able to analyze at that speed what you are doing wrong.  If you cannot analyze the faults at that speed then you are going way to fast. It has taken me two years to be able to gain this skill to perform this analysis at faster speeds to where I am comfortable.  This is a struggle for most new shooters.

 

In the end its up to you to put in the work.  

[NateMorris7]

So, I have a match today again. It is 2 scored stages, then 2 qualifiers. As early as I am in my journey, what is the reason for wanting to qualify? I am guaranteed to be a D class shooter. Even if i went as fast as i can go, with all A's I would still be low scoring. I also don't understand the % for the classification. If someone gets 100% wouldn't they bump up the fast time thus lowering everyone else hit factor? I know that doesn't pertain to me, but I would like to understand how this really works.  

[RJH]

44 minutes ago, NateMorris7 said:

So, I have a match today again. It is 2 scored stages, then 2 qualifiers. As early as I am in my journey, what is the reason for wanting to qualify? I am guaranteed to be a D class shooter. Even if i went as fast as i can go, with all A's I would still be low scoring. I also don't understand the % for the classification. If someone gets 100% wouldn't they bump up the fast time thus lowering everyone else hit factor? I know that doesn't pertain to me, but I would like to understand how this really works.  

You're worrying about too much s***. Worry about being safe and getting hits on target, don't even start thinking about the rest for a few matches as you seem to be very early in your pistol shooting career. So once again focus on safety, a quality site picture, and follow through on the shot

[Boomstick303]

Two years into the USPSA journey and classification is the least of my worries.  

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, NateMorris7 said:

So, I have a match today again. It is 2 scored stages, then 2 qualifiers. As early as I am in my journey, what is the reason for wanting to qualify? I am guaranteed to be a D class shooter. Even if i went as fast as i can go, with all A's I would still be low scoring. I also don't understand the % for the classification. If someone gets 100% wouldn't they bump up the fast time thus lowering everyone else hit factor? I know that doesn't pertain to me, but I would like to understand how this really works.  

Stop worrying about classification.

 

From what you describe I'm almost certain that you have zero idea of what the correct pistol shooting fundamentals are.

 

That is what you need to fix first.  It's going to be extremely difficult for you to fix something you don't understand.

 

Find someone near you, who does know, to help you.  Pay him or her if you must.  You will save significant amounts of time, money, and frustration in the long run.

 

Trust me on this......

[NateMorris7]

54 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Stop worrying about classification.

 

From what you describe I'm almost certain that you have zero idea of what the correct pistol shooting fundamentals are.

 

That is what you need to fix first.  It's going to be extremely difficult for you to fix something you don't understand.

 

Find someone near you, who does know, to help you.  Pay him or her if you must.  You will save significant amounts of time, money, and frustration in the long run.

 

Trust me on this......

I really dont get the push for paying for training. Understanding and implementing shooting fundamentals are 2 very different things. I didnt say I was worried about classification, I was more wondering why even bother shooting them. Much of shooting is mental, and while I understand that, it is not so easy for me to overcome. I have shot multiple other disciplines and am decent at all of them without paying someone to train me. would it help me, of course, but so early into this type of shooting it would be a waste because 90% of it would not be understood or retained due to lack of situational experience. If I am not even comfortable with the gun yet, why would i go through the pain of a class where I am expected to be able to hit all A's under 0 pressure. 

 

Its all just conversation and conjecture. I am not by any means saying I need to get a certain classification, I just don't see wasting the ammo for something so trivial.