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Bullet set back


Stevetford

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Ok I know this topic has been asked numerous times, I’ve searched and found many discussions but nothing answers my question that I’ve found. Quick rundown of the equipment:

Dillion 750 loading 

Mighty Armory sizing die

Dillion powder funnel

Dillion seating die

Dillion crimp die

Loading mixed range brass, DG 135 gr coated bullets

  The 750 is brand new, this is my first bulk batch of reloading today. Previously used a 550. While doing some test runs on the 750 I was really slowing the process down on the bullet seating station, just could not get the bullet to stay vertical in the case. Was flaring the case to .010, figured that was not enough so slowly crept up to .019 on the flare. Loaded a few, checked for set back using my bench top and all was good. 
  Fast forward to today, loaded the primer tubes and knocked out 230 rounds. During my checks I’m finding random rounds that I can push the bullet into the case. Not easily, but that fact that I can push the bullet back into the case is enough to cause worry in my opinion.  
  I’m assuming this is the result of too much case flare prior to bullet seating. The MA sizing die is brand new. The crimp is at .377 but my research tells me crimp does not control bullet setback, neck tension does. Am I correct  on what I’ve read so far. 
  And finally my question: besides pulling the bullets and starting all over is there a way to save these rounds? I have a Lee FCD, would running them through this without the crimp portion help at all?

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Steve - I am guessing you are getting set back on some rounds but not others because you are using “mixed brass”….I would consider setting your taper crimp die to provide another 1 to 2 thousands crimp and run what you have loaded through the crimp die station only again.  This would allow you to use the rounds you have already loaded.  I am betting this would fix your issue. I run range pick up brass and have experienced this same issue in the past….For me I added a small amount more taper crimp and my problems went away….

 

Lets see what some of the other more experienced forum reloaders have to say.  This fixed my issue but yours may not be exactly the same situation (one variable difference between what I do vs. what you do can change the possible solution)….Mark

Edited by Sigarmsp226
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Set back is usually a result of poor sizing. Just because the die is new doesn't mean that it is correct. Do you have a different sizing die? Adding crimp won't change the set back problem. Over crimping has it's own problems. Taper crimp does not "hold" the bullet. 

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4 minutes ago, Youngeyes said:

Set back is usually a result of poor sizing. Just because the die is new doesn't mean that it is correct. Do you have a different sizing die? Adding crimp won't change the set back problem. Over crimping has it's own problems. Taper crimp does not "hold" the bullet. 

True, but I’m hoping for the price I paid for these sizing dies it’s not the problem. I only own 2 sizing does, both are the Mighty Armory TNT gold match dies. 

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16 minutes ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Steve - I am guessing you are getting set back on some rounds but not others because you are using “mixed brass”….I would consider setting your taper crimp die to provide another 1 to 2 thousands crimp and run what you have loaded through the crimp die station only again.  This would allow you to use the rounds you have already loaded.  I am betting this would fix your issue. I run range pick up brass and have experienced this same issue in the past….For me I added a small amount more taper crimp and my problems went away….

 

Lets see what some of the other more experienced forum reloaders have to say.  This fixed my issue but yours may not be exactly the same situation (one variable difference between what I do vs. what you do can change the possible solution)….Mark

I agree about the range brass and I’m sure that’s a major contributor to my problems. 

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1 minute ago, Stevetford said:

True, but I’m hoping for the price I paid for these sizing dies it’s not the problem. I only own 2 sizing does, both are the Mighty Armory TNT gold match dies. 

OK. Try this. Start with new brass. Just flare slightly and seat the bullet. Check for set back. If ok then the sizing die is fine. Crimp and check again. If OK, than it's most likely the crappy range brass. 

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7 minutes ago, Youngeyes said:

OK. Try this. Start with new brass. Just flare slightly and seat the bullet. Check for set back. If ok then the sizing die is fine. Crimp and check again. If OK, than it's most likely the crappy range brass. 

Got it, I’ll give that a try tomorrow and report back. Really appreciate your help with this. 

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Check your sized brass.  It should be at least .002 smaller ID than your bullet OD.  You need to have an interference fit to keep the bullet from moving back.  Doesn't matter who made the die or what it cost.  If it's not sizing the case adequately, it's not doing what it's supposed to, and you need to find one that does.  Also, crimp should be just enough to remove the flare from the case mouth and maybe another .001 or .002.  Adding more crimp won't prevent setback.

Edited by ltdmstr
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1 hour ago, Stevetford said:

Mighty Armory sizing die

This

 

Depending on which die you have from them it may not be sizing the brass down far enough. How do I know? I have a MA 9mm die and it is the only one which caused me any set back issues. Since I purchased mine years ago they have updated it to provided adjustable neck sizing to do what the Dillon and other dies already do, slightly undersize the brass to provide proper tension. 
 

MA new die:

The TNT "Tighter Neck Tension" design will allow you to adjust the die for bullet diameter and length. After a 4 minute setup you're good to go. 

 

Contact them with your issue.


Also, the Lee FCD will not solve this issue at all. Instead it can creat other issues, especially with coated and plated bullets. 

Edited by HesedTech
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24 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

This

 

Depending on which die you have from them it may not be sizing the brass down far enough. How do I know? I have a MA 9mm die and it is the only one which caused me any set back issues. Since I purchased mine years ago they have updated it to provided adjustable neck sizing to do what the Dillon and other dies already do, slightly undersize the brass to provide proper tension. 
 

MA new die:

The TNT "Tighter Neck Tension" design will allow you to adjust the die for bullet diameter and length. After a 4 minute setup you're good to go. 

 

Contact them with your issue.


Also, the Lee FCD will not solve this issue at all. Instead it can creat other issues, especially with coated and plated bullets. 

Both MA sizing dies I have are the TNT gold match dies that were bought this year, the one I’m currently using was purchased just a few weeks ago. I’m glad you posted that quote from their web site, that’s something I don’t understand how to adjust for the bullet. The only instructions I received were to screw the die down until it contacts the shell plate and lock it down. No other instructions on the web site either. 
  As far as the Lee FCD, I agree with you on that. I tried one out on my 550 and was not happy with the results. Went back to the Dillion crimp die on that machine. 

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55 minutes ago, ltdmstr said:

Check your sized brass.  It should be at least .002 smaller ID than your bullet OD.  You need to have an interference fit to keep the bullet from moving back.  Doesn't matter who made the die or what it cost.  If it's not sizing the case adequately, it's not doing what it's supposed to, and you need to find one that does.  Also, crimp should be just enough to remove the flare from the case mouth and maybe another .001 or .002.  Adding more crimp won't prevent setback.

That’s something else I need to do, and will do so tomorrow after work. Trust me, I’m not bragging about how much I paid for the sizing die, it’s just the only one I could find in stock. 

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You have the other 2 dies out of the Dillon die set but not the sizing die?

The Dillon sizing die will definitely provide enough tension to prevent setback and will work fine for 1000's of rounds. (or 100's or 1000s actually)

 

Not saying the Mighty Armory die is the issue but I have seen a few topics regarding that die underperforming which is not what I would expect at that price point.

Edited by xrayfk05
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This thread has taught me a lot about what I thought I knew - but did not….In my situation I was and still use a Dillon 9mm carbide resizing die. In reading Youngeyes and others comments I am guessing in my situation I just did not have enough crimp on my rounds…. I better understand now how overall case size plays a direct role in setback where as before I thought it was more related only to crimp….I stand corrected and will continue to read and learn before…Mark

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2 hours ago, xrayfk05 said:

You have the other 2 dies out of the Dillon die set but not the sizing die?

The Dillon sizing die will definitely provide enough tension to prevent setback and will work fine for 1000's of rounds. (or 100's or 1000s actually)

 

Not saying the Mighty Armory die is the issue but I have seen a few topics regarding that die underperforming which is not what I would expect at that price point.

Yes, I had to buy all my dies individually. It seems the sizing die is what’s causing the massive back order for Dillion. 

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I reload mixed head stamp brass all the time with no problems.  All of mine are Hornady dies, except for the Lee FCDs.

 

The first thing you should do is replace the Dillon powder funnel/expander with a Mr. Bulletfeeder one.  That expander is two step with the larger diameter upper step being a couple thousandths larger than the bullet.  That lets the bullet be inserted vertically and it won't tip over when the shell plate rotates.  Adjust the die so there is no 'bell' at the case mouth, or if using coated bullets, a couple of thousandths.  Seat asnd crimp separately.  I use the Lee FCD for crimping.  You can set it for zero crimp, or as much as you like.  In 45 and 40 it sizes the case all the way down and removes any Glock bulge the sizing die missed.  In 9mm it only sizes the top portion of the case.

 

I'd also suggest you try a different sizing die, and not necessarily the Lee U die.  It should size the case enough so that the bullet is retained even if you don't taper crimp.

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57 minutes ago, zzt said:

I reload mixed head stamp brass all the time with no problems.  All of mine are Hornady dies, except for the Lee FCDs.

 

The first thing you should do is replace the Dillon powder funnel/expander with a Mr. Bulletfeeder one.  That expander is two step with the larger diameter upper step being a couple thousandths larger than the bullet.  That lets the bullet be inserted vertically and it won't tip over when the shell plate rotates.  Adjust the die so there is no 'bell' at the case mouth, or if using coated bullets, a couple of thousandths.  Seat asnd crimp separately.  I use the Lee FCD for crimping.  You can set it for zero crimp, or as much as you like.  In 45 and 40 it sizes the case all the way down and removes any Glock bulge the sizing die missed.  In 9mm it only sizes the top portion of the case.

 

I'd also suggest you try a different sizing die, and not necessarily the Lee U die.  It should size the case enough so that the bullet is retained even if you don't taper crimp.

I have a powder funnel that I believe is similar to the Mr. Bullet feeder made by Uniquetek. Makes for very easy bullet seating but neck tension is absolutely gone so it’s back in the package under my bench. I may go back and look at the Mr. Bullet funnel again. 
  Sizing dies are kind of hard to find right now, what others do you suggest besides the U die?

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Any of the regular sizing dies will work. Hornady, RCBS , lee etc. They are available thru several of the distributers. Example..https://www.midwayusa.com/product/101110519?pid=719704

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=lee+u+die+9mm&crid=15LN4LW3SFM02&sprefix=lee+u+die%2Caps%2C160&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_3_9

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1 hour ago, Stevetford said:

I have a powder funnel that I believe is similar to the Mr. Bullet feeder made by Uniquetek. Makes for very easy bullet seating but neck tension is absolutely gone so it’s back in the package under my bench. I may go back and look at the Mr. Bullet funnel again. 
  Sizing dies are kind of hard to find right now, what others do you suggest besides the U die?

The Redding sizing die is the closest you can get in comparison to the Lee U-die. I have both of the in 9mm and can hardly tell the difference after they size the case. I also don’t get any bulletin setback using either one of them.

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The Alpha Dropper Powder Funnel is excellent. They use some kind of coating where sticking is virtually gone. Your problem is the MA die. I went through this problem for hours trying to make it work. When I went back to my original sizing die problem went away. Get another sizing die from any of the other reloading companies. To set up flair, I over flair a case and run the empty over flaired case in the seat die, measure that opening, then try to get your powder funnel close to that measurement. This lets the sides of your seat die keep the case straight while seating your bullet. IIRC for 9mm this measurement is .383 to .385, crimp should be around .376 to .379. Even if you get the Dillon sizing die you can grind the bottom of the die flat until your just shy of the carbide ring and that should remove most of the bulge in 9mm cases.

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2 hours ago, Stevetford said:

I have a powder funnel that I believe is similar to the Mr. Bullet feeder made by Uniquetek.

 

That may be your problem.  That funnel expands larger than the MBF and farther into the case.  That is NOT good.  You are probably not getting all of that out in the seating and crimping die.  The 9mm Lee FCD does not size down that far.

 

You don't need a 'special' funnel/expander for normal coated bullets.  I use the MBF with zero bell and have no problems with shaving coated bullets.  If you have to use .002 or more oversized bullets, a minute bell will eliminate shaving.

 

I'm happy with my Hornady sizing die.  Even if I don't crimp I get no set back.

Edited by zzt
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I want to thank everyone for all the suggestions and tips. I’ve got some good advice on things to check when I get home and will report what I find. 
  I also want to add that I did reach out to Mighty Armory via email. Wayne has been great offering much of the same advice you all have offered here as well. 

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12 hours ago, Stevetford said:

I have a powder funnel that I believe is similar to the Mr. Bullet feeder made by Uniquetek. Makes for very easy bullet seating but neck tension is absolutely gone so it’s back in the package under my bench. I may go back and look at the Mr. Bullet funnel again. 
  Sizing dies are kind of hard to find right now, what others do you suggest besides the U die?

It's a bit higher priced, but this Redding has been in use for MANY years and I've never had a problem with setback!  IMO, one of the finest sizers on the market!

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012361584

 

Also, make sure you're using this particular funnel for regular (sized) 9mm bullets:

 

https://www.uniquetek.com/product/T1582

 

When your sizing and funnel/expansion Powder Drop are set up correctly, these are the results you can expect from the MBF/UniqueTek/Photo Escape powder funnel:

 

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/205711-fix-for-shaving-lead-bullets/

 

👍

 

 

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