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Two pass reloaders, is the 1st pass before or after cleaning brass???


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On 8/14/2021 at 10:23 AM, JDIllon said:

OK, what is your formula? They look great! JD 

 

On 8/14/2021 at 10:21 AM, George16 said:

Oh yeah I heard about brass juice. I don’t use it though. I made my own solution for wet tumbling which works just as good or better and a lot cheaper.
 

Results are like these:

2-ECADC8-A-FA7-A-4535-B878-47419-A1-CF4-

 

Are you willing to share your cleaning solution? Thanks, JD

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  • 4 weeks later...

Well I decided earlier this week to give this a 500 round try - and - I really like the results……I started with wet tumbled (with SS pins), primer still in the case, mixed range brass that has been sorted to remove all step, military/crimped, and "troublesome to reload for various reasons" brass.  Todd Tuckwood of A+ Brass (in the Classified Ad - approved vendors section of this forum) provides this service and has vision system.  Todd has sorted and re-cleaned over 80,000 pieces of 9mm brass for me.   

 

For me - I am sure everyone may have a different or better method - this is how I set mine up…..Also - I did this with one of my 650’s not my RL1100 since I have extra tool heads and I have my RL1100 set up to run my PPC 9mm round and do not intend to change it out until I get 5000 rds. completed….

 

650 Toolhead One

1 - FW Arms Primer Popper

2- Empty

3 - Empty

4 - Lee Re-Sizing Die

5 - Empty

 

650 Toolhead Two

1 - Redding Premium Expander Die (Man I LOVE this die)

2 - Powder Drop - No case expansion required)

3 - Powder Check

4 - Seat

5 - Crimp

 

I realize that I am pulling the handle twice as often for the same number of rounds but thought I would give it a try as I am old and enjoy my time in my reloading room.  
 

As for the Redding Expander Die - a forum member identified that they use this type expander die rather than the powder die for expanding and so far I like the results. I had this Redding die in my inventory and decided to give it a try.  It provides a very consistent bell and of course no sticking……

 

Two pass loading for the 1100 will follow at a later time…Right now just enjoying the simplicity of giving this a try without having to tear into/down the 1100 to do so….. 

 

Edited by Sigarmsp226
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2 hours ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Well I decided earlier this week to give this a 500 round try - and - I really like the results……I started with wet tumbled (with SS pins), primer still in the case, mixed range brass that has been sorted to remove all step, military/crimped, and "troublesome to reload for various reasons" brass.  Todd Tuckwood of A+ Brass (in the Classified Ad - approved vendors section of this forum) provides this service and has vision system.  Todd has sorted and re-cleaned over 80,000 pieces of 9mm brass for me.   

 

For me - I am sure everyone may have a different or better method - this is how I set mine up…..Also - I did this with one of my 650’s not my RL1100 since I have extra tool heads and I have my RL1100 set up to run my PPC 9mm round and do not intend to change it out until I get 5000 rds. completed….

 

650 Toolhead One

1 - FW Arms Primer Popper

2- Empty

3 - Empty

4 - Lee Re-Sizing Die

5 - Empty

 

650 Toolhead Two

1 - Redding Premium Expander Die (Man I LOVE this die)

2 - Powder Drop - No case expansion required)

3 - Powder Check

4 - Seat

5 - Crimp

 

I realize that I am pulling the handle twice as often for the same number of rounds but thought I would give it a try as I am old and enjoy my time in my reloading room.  
 

As for the Redding Expander Die - a forum member identified that they use this type expander die rather than the powder die for expanding and so far I like the results. I had this Redding die in my inventory and decided to give it a try.  It provides a very consistent bell and of course no sticking……

 

Two pass loading for the 1100 will follow at a later time…Right now just enjoying the simplicity of giving this a try without having to tear into/down the 1100 to do so….. 

 

 

I am just finalizing setting up my 1050 for 223! I stated with a Lee app and got tired of handling the brass 15 time? So I started to play around on the 1050, first clean brass with primers in Brass Juice. I kept the 9mm shell plate and hand fed cases. Spray cases with lube then into the decap/size station and proceeded to the next station and swaged all the brass. Then I did the same thing but bought a 223 plate for my case feeder. Then I realized that if I got a powder funnel, I could do powder and hand feed bullets and seat and crimp on the 1050. Using the 9mm #3 shell plate works kind of OK, but it does not hold the case in the center well enough when priming!! So have a FFB #5 223 shell plate coming and that should solve that problem? 

I know! I Know! LOL! I could be buying new ammo for what I have in this project!!! Just thought you might like to know? 

I have to much time on my hands!!! RETIREMENT does this to you.  JD

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4 hours ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Well I decided earlier this week to give this a 500 round try - and - I really like the results……I started with wet tumbled (with SS pins), primer still in the case, mixed range brass that has been sorted to remove all step, military/crimped, and "troublesome to reload for various reasons" brass.  Todd Tuckwood of A+ Brass (in the Classified Ad - approved vendors section of this forum) provides this service and has vision system.  Todd has sorted and re-cleaned over 80,000 pieces of 9mm brass for me.   

 

For me - I am sure everyone may have a different or better method - this is how I set mine up…..Also - I did this with one of my 650’s not my RL1100 since I have extra tool heads and I have my RL1100 set up to run my PPC 9mm round and do not intend to change it out until I get 5000 rds. completed….

 

650 Toolhead One

1 - FW Arms Primer Popper

2- Empty

3 - Empty

4 - Lee Re-Sizing Die

5 - Empty

 

650 Toolhead Two

1 - Redding Premium Expander Die (Man I LOVE this die)

2 - Powder Drop - No case expansion required)

3 - Powder Check

4 - Seat

5 - Crimp

 

I realize that I am pulling the handle twice as often for the same number of rounds but thought I would give it a try as I am old and enjoy my time in my reloading room.  
 

As for the Redding Expander Die - a forum member identified that they use this type expander die rather than the powder die for expanding and so far I like the results. I had this Redding die in my inventory and decided to give it a try.  It provides a very consistent bell and of course no sticking……

 

Two pass loading for the 1100 will follow at a later time…Right now just enjoying the simplicity of giving this a try without having to tear into/down the 1100 to do so….. 

 

 

Sigarms,

I keep going back and forth about using the undersize die on my processing run.

My current processing toolhead has:

1 - casefeed

2 - FW Arms popper decapper

3 - FW Arms Swage hold down.

4 - Empty

5 - Empty

6 - Lee full length sizing/decapping die

7 - Dillon carbide sizing/decapping die

 

Then, I processed 3000 with the Lee undersized die in station 8, and then another 3000 with station 8 empty.

 

I've only loaded about 20 of each, and what I'm finding is that the cases that were undersized are sticking big time on the Mr. Bullet Feeder expander that is in my powder measure.  I need to research how to get those cases to release easier.  I used Hornady one shot to lube the cases for processing, but did not lube when loading.

 

Cuz

 

 

 

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Cuz - HogRider told me about the guy who originally created the MBF and he now sells a powder die that has a finish on it that is far smoother than the MBF powder funnel. I know this because I ordered one and it is what I am running in my RL1100 now. His company name is called - PhotoEscape (not Photo Scape as I referenced below)….

 

https://www.photoescapeinc.com/products/powder-funnel.html

 

B259-C1-F5-D05-E-4581-95-CC-ABEC2657940-

 

I have also read where folks have had great success with the powder die from shooting sports innovations but I have no direct experience in using it. 

 

https://shootingsportsinnovations.com/alpha-dropper-powder-funnel/

Edited by Sigarmsp226
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6 minutes ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

 

Cuz - HogRider told me about the guy who originally created the MBF and he now sells a powder die that has a finish on it that is far smoother than the MBF powder funnel. I know this because I ordered one and it is what I am running in my RL1100 now. His company name is called - PhotoEscape (not Photo Scape as I referenced below)….

 

https://www.photoescapeinc.com/products/powder-funnel.html

 

B259-C1-F5-D05-E-4581-95-CC-ABEC2657940-

 

I have also read where folks have had great success with the powder die from shooting sports innovations but I have no direct experience in using it. 

 

https://shootingsportsinnovations.com/alpha-dropper-powder-funnel/

I have the double Alpha, it’s a little better than the Dillon, but it still sticks! JD 

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Cuz - Also - I stopped using the U die on both of my 9mm set ups because it was causing me to have to bell the case more to get the bullet started.  On both presses I am running a Dillon on one and a Lee on the other.  The standard Lee resizing/depriming die actually sizes .001”” over standard and because one of the bullets I am loading is a .356” this works perfectly.  
 

I have both presses set to taper crimp at .370” and they both usually hold a +/-.003” so because I can get the resistance I need to prevent set back on my taper crimp die I decided to not use the U die for my current 9mm bullet applications…. 

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JDillon - I also tried the Double Alpha and it also stuck in my applications and I also use One Shot. That is the reason I was able to photo all three funnels side by side. I only have about 1500 rounds loaded through the Photo Escape powder funnel so it may be to early to know if it will eventually stick. 
 

If you guys ever decide to give a expanding die a chance (like the Lyman “M” die which I have not specifically tried for 9mm) consider the Redding Premium Expanding Die. I started using this die about two weeks ago and it does not stick and it also expands the case opening slightly different that allows the bullet to seat much more consistent. I have not had one round fail my Shockbottle case gauge when using this expanding die….

Edited by Sigarmsp226
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Has anybody tried the Redding Expanding Die in station 4, the priming station, on the CNC Shooter tool head?

 

I'm wondering if there would be interference with the primer lever arm bracket. 

The Lyman M-die hits the bracket unless the bracket is relieved a bit.

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ddc - I do not have the CNC Shooter Toohead but I do have a second Redding Premium Expander die that came in today for my son that I will be giving to him on Sunday when we meet him to give the grandgirls back. I am happy to provide pictures and measurements while I have his die in hand - I just need some guidance on what to measure. I also have Lee and Dillon 9mm dies on hand if a side by side photo would be better.  
 

Let me know what I can provide that might help you and I will be happy to get the pictures and/or measurements together tomorrow and post or send to you through a message….Mark

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58 minutes ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

ddc - I do not have the CNC Shooter Toohead but I do have a second Redding Premium Expander die that came in today for my son that I will be giving to him on Sunday when we meet him to give the grandgirls back. I am happy to provide pictures and measurements while I have his die in hand - I just need some guidance on what to measure. I also have Lee and Dillon 9mm dies on hand if a side by side photo would be better.  
 

Let me know what I can provide that might help you and I will be happy to get the pictures and/or measurements together tomorrow and post or send to you through a message….Mark

 

Thanks very much. Out of town guests so hopefully tomorrow I can look at it at some point.

I'll have to refresh my memory exactly where the issue was; it's been a while.

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11 hours ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

JDillon - I also tried the Double Alpha and it also stuck in my applications and I also use One Shot. That is the reason I was able to photo all three funnels side by side. I only have about 1500 rounds loaded through the Photo Escape powder funnel so it may be to early to know if it will eventually stick. 
 

If you guys ever decide to give a expanding die a chance (like the Lyman “M” die which I have not specifically tried for 9mm) consider the Redding Premium Expanding Die. I started using this die about two weeks ago and it does not stick and it also expands the case opening slightly different that allows the bullet to seat much more consistent. I have not had one round fail my Shockbottle case gauge when using this expanding die….

SORRY! I meant Shooting Sports Innovations! It also sticks on the down stroke of my 1050 with 9mm! So does the Photo Escape stick? And how does a coated bullet sit on the case from a bullet feeder? I can,t find a happy setting so coated bullet don’t fall off or lay over about 1 or 2% of the rnds? JD  

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JD - I currently do not have my MBF hooked up to my RL1100. I had it hooked up to my Mark 7 but after selling it and back filling with the RL1100 my MBF has sat idle (I will eventually hook it back up).
 

Also sorry to say I do not load any coated bullets. I primarily load RMR 124Gr FMJ’s (using up remaining inventory) and now in the past four months switched over to Precision Delta’s 124Gr JHP.  
 

As you read this you may ask yourself which delivery system am I using because I reference using the Redding Premium Expander Die and also the Photo Escape Powder Die. I still have my XL650 set up and I load 9mm on it while also loading a slightly different round on the RL1100.  I am using the Photo Escape on the RL1100 on a one pass loading process while using the Redding on the XL650 on a two pass loading process I just set up earlier this week. 
 

I know you may not want to hear me say this but if you are doing a two pass loading process you might want to consider trying the Redding Premium Expander Die. I know it messes up the typical processes we are all used to but I really like mine and after 500 rounds (I just came in from loading another 200 rounds while the grandgirls are still sleeping) I did not have a single issue.  
 

Sorry I was not able to provide any type of feedback to you with the MBF or coated bullet options.  Being that I am sure we are distant kin (check my profile details and this comment will make sense) I hate that you are not close enough for me to let you try my sons Redding Premium Expander die that just arrived yesterday that I will be giving to him tomorrow evening.   

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45 minutes ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

JD - I currently do not have my MBF hooked up to my RL1100. I had it hooked up to my Mark 7 but after selling it and back filling with the RL1100 my MBF has sat idle (I will eventually hook it back up).
 

Also sorry to say I do not load any coated bullets. I primarily load RMR 124Gr FMJ’s (using up remaining inventory) and now in the past four months switched over to Precision Delta’s 124Gr JHP.  
 

As you read this you may ask yourself which delivery system am I using because I reference using the Redding Premium Expander Die and also the Photo Escape Powder Die. I still have my XL650 set up and I load 9mm on it while also loading a slightly different round on the RL1100.  I am using the Photo Escape on the RL1100 on a one pass loading process while using the Redding on the XL650 on a two pass loading process I just set up earlier this week. 
 

I know you may not want to hear me say this but if you are doing a two pass loading process you might want to consider trying the Redding Premium Expander Die. I know it messes up the typical processes we are all used to but I really like mine and after 500 rounds (I just came in from loading another 200 rounds while the grandgirls are still sleeping) I did not have a single issue.  
 

Sorry I was not able to provide any type of feedback to you with the MBF or coated bullet options.  Being that I am sure we are distant kin (check my profile details and this comment will make sense) I hate that you are not close enough for me to let you try my sons Redding Premium Expander die that just arrived yesterday that I will be giving to him tomorrow evening.   

Does the Photo Escape stick? JD 

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No Sir - Not so far but I only have about 1000 rounds through the Photo Escape Powder Die so far…..

 

Paging HOGRIDER (I just sent him a message also) - Hog, how many rounds have you loaded using your Photo Escape Powder Die and have you had any sticking issues so far?

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I suppose if we polish the expanding die it will lessen the sticking. Anyone know the best way to polish it without screwing it up???

 

Someone previously told me to use 600 grit sandpaper to clean it off because brass particles get stuck on it  and cause the sticking. I was told to use the sandpaper to clean it, then rub a very, very small amount of Dillons case lube on it. 
 

I have not yet tried to do this, but may pick up some sandpaper at Lowe’s later today. 

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Cuz - I am no expert by any means but 600 grit does not seem to be really that fine. I would think a minimum of 800 grit with a second pass of 1000-1200 grit if there is such a thing.  What about 00, 000, or 0000 steel wool?  I would be concerned that 600 grit might take whatever coating or finish that is on the die - off but maybe that is what we are needing it to do….

 

I wonder if there is a Dremel attachment that would one to do this. I know they sell circular sanding bands for the Dremel tool just not sure how fine they go. Also wonder if jewelers rouge would work…..
 

Again - I am not a machinist and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night so take my thoughts with a grain of pepper….  

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Thanks,

That's the kind of info I was looking for.  I've loaded about 7,000 rounds before it started sticking, so it may just need a good cleaning.  I'm doing it by hand, never had a dremel, and probably saved a lot of money by not ruining expensive gun parts... :)

 

So I'll check for 1000-1200 grit, or some 00, 000, or 000 steel wool to start with.  Either way, I need a trip to Lowes or Home Depot to get what I need.  That's scheduled for later this afternoon, so I'll be sure to check back here before I buy anything, or more likely, I'll end up just buying EVERYTHING so I'll be sure to have what I need.

 

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It sounds like it works better than anything else? Buy the way I polished my Dillon powder funnel with Flitz and a Dremel buffing wheel, and it still sticks. I think I will try the Photo Escape? Does it bell a 9mm case OK? JD

 

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I had better luck using 0000 steel wool. I have plenty of it since it’s what I use to clean the frets on my guitars. 
 

If it’s effective yet delicate enough to clean the frets of a $4k guitar, it’s good enough for a $30 powder funnel 😝.

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JD - Yes - In fact it is the same length and almost the exact same profile as the MBF and the DA. I only made a very minor adjustment when I dropped it into my powder funnel die. The guy that helped create or created this specific powder funnel, that the MBF company adopted, told me by email that the problem with the current MBF over his Photo Escape version is 100% related to the tooling used to make the powder die and then the final finish. 
He told me that the MBF is no longer made in the US like his and when he finishes the Photo Escape powder funnel he makes sure all of the tooling marks are polished out. He said this is what causes a powder funnel to stick. He went on to say that it takes more time to make one of the Photo Escape units because of this extra work but it is what will prevent it from sticking. 
 

I have no affiliation with the Photo Escape company. When I received my powder die from Photo Escape I looked at it and said to myself that there is no visual difference in the Photo Escape from the DAA or the MBF units. I questioned this with the inventor who sells now under the Photo Escape website and that is when he told me it was all in the final finishing and if I looked at his using a magnifying glass vs. the MBF or DA I would see the difference. My comment was - as long as it does not stick I do not care about what it looks like. 
 

So far no sticking but again I only have about 1000 rounds loaded with this new powder die so only time will tell. If it starts sticking I will post it here asap. 

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14 hours ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

Cuz - Also - I stopped using the U die on both of my 9mm set ups because it was causing me to have to bell the case more to get the bullet started.  On both presses I am running a Dillon on one and a Lee on the other.  The standard Lee resizing/depriming die actually sizes .001”” over standard and because one of the bullets I am loading is a .356” this works perfectly.  
 

I have both presses set to taper crimp at .370” and they both usually hold a +/-.003” so because I can get the resistance I need to prevent set back on my taper crimp die I decided to not use the U die for my current 9mm bullet applications…. 

.370 is pretty low for 9mm since .378 is normal target.

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1 hour ago, Cuz said:

I suppose if we polish the expanding die it will lessen the sticking. Anyone know the best way to polish it without screwing it up???

 

Someone previously told me to use 600 grit sandpaper to clean it off because brass particles get stuck on it  and cause the sticking. I was told to use the sandpaper to clean it, then rub a very, very small amount of Dillons case lube on it. 
 

I have not yet tried to do this, but may pick up some sandpaper at Lowe’s later today. 

I agree that 600 might be too coarse. Lowe’s will have all the way up to 2000 grit. Buy as many as you can and try them.

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1 hour ago, Sigarmsp226 said:

No Sir - Not so far but I only have about 1000 rounds through the Photo Escape Powder Die so far…..

 

Paging HOGRIDER (I just sent him a message also) - Hog, how many rounds have you loaded using your Photo Escape Powder Die and have you had any sticking issues so far?

Sig:

I'd guess I'm getting close to 5K rounds on the PE powder funnel, and it's working perfectly!

 

From all my research years ago, and talking with Rick Koskela (inventor/founder of MBF) the sticking of our powder funnels is merely a result of friction.  What really aggravates it is the cleaner the brass (new and/or wet cleaned) the more resistance/sticking it causes when retracting the case. I'm sure you can remember other loaders posting that they didn't experience the sticking issue due to using a media type cleaning of their brass which does leave some combustion residue inside the case mouth.

 

Another point that IMO is VERY IMPORTANT, are we using a correctly sized MBF/PE/DAA type funnel?  Something Rick shared with me that is spot on:

 

Quote

It's also possible that your funnel was poorly machined / or slightly oversize. The expander step should be something around .3575" or .3580" maximum for the 9-38 funnel.

 

Once I had my funnel (out of specs) machined to .3575" and highly polished, that eliminated 90% of my sticking issues.  This is with my .355" Zero bullets or .356" coated lead.  So, before any polishing is done, there needs to be an accurate assessment done on the funnel seat to make sure it's not oversized.

 

For me, there were 3 stations on the RL1100 that were all contributing to "sticking".  The Station 3 Dillon expander, the original Station 5 MBF powder funnel, and the Station 8 Redding Taper Crimp.  After addressing the causes in each station, I am 99% sticking free!  

 

I also contribute my smoothness to the Hornady One Shot case lube!  Another tid bit from Mr. Koskela:

 

Quote

From my point of view, I think the first thing I would suggest is to use a good case lube. Some folks don't like to use a case lube on handgun cases, but I recommend it. It makes the whole stroke smoother and you'll need less overall force to complete the stroke. I like Hornady One Shot in the original aerosol can. I usually spread out the cases so they lay down on an old cookie sheet and then spray one side. When the brass is mixing in the casefeeder, the lube will spread all over the cases. Some lube will migrate into the case mouths and aid in reducing tugging.

 

Finally, I also like your idea of using the Redding Premium Expander Die before the powder drop!  Currently I'm not using one as I've made some "adjustments" on my stock Station 3 hold down/expander, but the Redding when properly adjusted, will definitely take some of the expansion chores off the powder drop funnel making the whole process much smoother!

 

Hope all this helps my Friend!

 

👍

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