Go back to plastic?

[Boomstick303]

3 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

This happened at all the skill levels. And now no one wins the match with irons anymore.

 

Is this because they started shooting target focused versus front sight focused?  I would say yes.  So is it the aiming system or their approach to shooting the target, that changed that improved their standing?  

 

I think everyone could agree that one could become more efficient shooting target focused using dots quicker, because that is the current orthodoxly.  What if those same shooters changed their approach using irons.  I bet the never considered shooting target focused using Irons for the very reason you expressed in that points are more important in IDPA than USPSA.  

 

Like you said impossible to prove, again to my point a mute point to argue over.  

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, Balakay said:

Put a dot gun and one with irons in the hands of someone who is competent with both and the Dot is faster over the course of a match

 

That's not what I said.  

 

45 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Not if they have never shot a dot before.

 

[Balakay]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

That's not what I said.  

 

 

so basically what you're saying his if you take 2 people who have no idea how to use a red dot or do target focus, you think the irons might be faster.

Fascinating premise for a competition shooting forum.

I will counter that it is easier and faster for the Noobs in question to use dot focus because there is no issue with having to align the front and rear sights. Just put the dot on the target and blast away.  

[PatJones]

1 hour ago, Balakay said:

Moot not mute.

I was going to say the same thing, but I will remain mute.

[Intheshaw1]

So personally, I did the dot vs irons myself at the GSSF match for the 5 to Glock. For those not familiar, it's 5 targets distanced evenly from 5 to 25 yards and shoot 3 strings.

 

I took my CO 34 with dot and Timney trigger vs my 17 with irons and 25 cent trigger. Not the exact gun but pretty close.

 

What I found personally, was that my irons times were about a second slower per string and accuracy tended to drop as well.

 

I shot exclusively red dot this year and irons for the past 10. What I've seen personally is my accuracy and speed is much better with a dot. I've also seen the same things with all the shooters I shoot with who moved to a dot.

[motosapiens]

46 minutes ago, Balakay said:

that's just a stupid comment.  Put a dot gun and one with irons in the hands of someone who is competent with both and the Dot is faster over the course of a match.  Every.  Single.  Time.  Is this really even debatable? 

it takes a while to get competent with a red dot. i would bet money that some people at nationals might not yet be competent. For sure, I have observed a 3-division iron sight GM struggle with the dot, and shoot worse than normal.

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

26 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Is this because they started shooting target focused versus front sight focused?  I would say yes.  So is it the aiming system or their approach to shooting the target, that changed that improved their standing?  

 

 

I can't really answer that question, and I'd bet most of them couldn't answer either. The average guy at my local club match is not breaking this stuff down like people on this forum. The result is clear. My guess as to why would be on average their accuracy probably improved because the gun is easier to aim, this may vary well of improved their raw time too.

 

I've never dug into the scores deep enough to really try to break it all down. In my mind is seems apparent that the dot should be better and the results where showing that. The effort it would take to sort through dozens of shooters over a few hundred matches since CO became a thing, just didn't seem worth it. I'd be better off training

 

This might make a good question for Ben's podcast. I know he's gone back and forth between the two while training, and so has Hwansik. Their experience might have your answer. 

 

[Balakay]

20 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

it takes a while to get competent with a red dot. i would bet money that some people at nationals might not yet be competent. For sure, I have observed a 3-division iron sight GM struggle with the dot, and shoot worse than normal.

 

 

Not you, too.  You are way too smart for this. 

PCC unequivocally  is faster than single stack but in my hands, I am faster with SS because I have zero rifle skills.  Not the point.

Let JJ or Ben or Kim or anyone who is A-class in both Prod and CO and see what happens with equally loaded mags.  Even if you suck with target focus, using the dot as a front sight is faster than irons because there is no need to align the sights.  

 

 

[motosapiens]

29 minutes ago, Balakay said:

Not you, too.  You are way too smart for this. 

PCC unequivocally  is faster than single stack but in my hands, I am faster with SS because I have zero rifle skills.  Not the point.

Let JJ or Ben or Kim or anyone who is A-class in both Prod and CO and see what happens with equally loaded mags.  Even if you suck with target focus, using the dot as a front sight is faster than irons because there is no need to align the sights.  

 

 

sure, I will stipulate to the fact that once you have trained extensively with a red dot, you will almost certainly be faster on more difficult targets. that's not exactly your original claim tho. 

 

 

[motosapiens]

and a further data point, I have heard Nils claim he shoots better with irons than with a dot. He's probably lying or exaggerating, but still, he shoots pretty darned well with irons, and not as well (compared to other top shooters) with a dot. Draw your own conclusions about that. I don't really care that much since dots and irons are in different divisions.

[Tanders]

2 hours ago, Balakay said:

Not you, too.  You are way too smart for this. 

PCC unequivocally  is faster than single stack but in my hands, I am faster with SS because I have zero rifle skills.  Not the point.

Let JJ or Ben or Kim or anyone who is A-class in both Prod and CO and see what happens with equally loaded mags.  Even if you suck with target focus, using the dot as a front sight is faster than irons because there is no need to align the sights.  

 

 

I'm a GM in Production and M in CO (actually have a M classifer percentage, didn't just classify one lower than my best division), so I'm pretty decent with both irons and a dot. On long shots or hard shots, my shot calling is much more precise with a dot and the transitions are faster and easier. However, for fast shooting up close I find shooting with irons much easier since since the dot turns into a streak when shooting sub .25 splits due to persistence of vision. This streaking makes it more challenging to call exactly where the dot was on the target when the gun went off, meaning shooting close partials is a bit slower. I think I remember JJ saying something like this after he won Limited Nationals in 2019 with an almost identical score to Max in CO.

[RileyBowman]

Just now, Tanders said:

I'm a GM in Production and M in CO (actually have a M classifer percentage, didn't just classify one lower than my best division), so I'm pretty decent with both irons and a dot. On long shots or hard shots, my shot calling is much more precise with a dot and the transitions are faster and easier. However, for fast shooting up close I find shooting with irons much easier since since the dot turns into a streak when shooting sub .25 splits due to persistence of vision. This streaking makes it more challenging to call exactly where the dot was on the target when the gun went off, meaning shooting close partials is a bit slower. I think I remember JJ saying something like this after he won Limited Nationals in 2019 with an almost identical score to Max in CO.

 

Learn to "ride the streak." Seriously. Bottom (or perigee) of the streak is where you'll find the called shot.

[Boomstick303]

 

 

People are missing my point completely.

 

There are so many factors involved in using both aiming systems that you cannot make a blanket statement of dots are faster than irons.  At least I do not think this have been completely proven out due to the newness of shooting target focused with irons.     

 

My question is since shooting target focused with irons is so new are we sure its not how aiming at the target is what is making up the time?  I think this is a legit question.   Maybe the answer its a combination of thigs.

 

If you took a very accomplished shooter shooting target focused with irons, and then he starts shooting with a dot and get proficient using a dot I do not think his times would differ too much.  My point is being target focused is the fastest way to shoot, and I think is completely proven out.  Why are more of the top dynamic shooting sport trainers starting to go down this path???  Because its faster.  

 

I will agree the curve to being efficient and shooting with a dot target focused is a much smaller learning curve than shooting target focused with irons.  If you take a normal Joe off the street stating from ground zero and gave him the same amount of training and they truly shot both irons and dots using a target focus I imagine he would shoot the dot more accurately and quicker.  I do not think this could be said for accomplished iron shooters using a target focus when they switch to a dot gun which they are proficient at using, all things being equal.

 

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Boomstick303

[Boomstick303]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

This might make a good question for Ben's podcast. I know he's gone back and forth between the two while training, and so has Hwansik. Their experience might have your answer. 

 

I was thinking this very thing this afternoon.  They and a very few others might be the only ones. 

 

I am going to shut up now, because this thread has gone waaaaaay of topic.   

Edited November 2, 2021 by Boomstick303

[Boomstick303]

It would seem there is a limit in distance that comes into play when Irons slow you down for those proficient using dots and shooting target focused with Irons, which makes complete sense. 

 

This is the point I was trying to make.   

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

6 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

It would seem there is a limit in distance that comes into play when Irons slow you down for those proficient using dots and shooting target focused with Irons, which makes complete sense. 

 

This is the point I was trying to make.   

 

 

 

I'll probably listen to that on my drive home from work. 

 

So I'm guessing from your post they are saying as the shots get hard (hard being subjective and different based on skill) the dot will have a more apparent advantage. 

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

the dot will have a more apparent advantage. 

 

Yes, when you get to a certain distance for them that have been shooting target focused with irons.  They indicate there is pretty much no difference between them to to that point.  

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Yes, when you get to a certain distance for them that have been shooting target focused with irons.  They indicate there is pretty much no difference between them to to that point.  

 

I think that makes sense. 

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Yes, when you get to a certain distance for them that have been shooting target focused with irons.  They indicate there is pretty much no difference between them to to that point.  

I also think that makes sense. For spodes like me with only a few months of dot practice, it's even worse. I'm actually faster with irons on targets at 7 yards and under. But that's probably because I've been shooting irons for 10 years and a dot for a total of 4-5 months, and I'm 60 and I suck. Watching good experienced open shooters, it's pretty clear the dot isn't slowing *them* down on closer targets.

 

there's no doubt that past 10 yards, and especially on steel, the dot is a significant advantage.

 

Of course it's an entirely academic discussion, since they don't compete in the same divisions, but if other people have similar experiences, it may explain why some folks just get frustrated and annoyed with dots. I am finding a lot of dot skills and techniques and mindset transfer over to irons pretty well. I think once I practice more with the dot (maybe next fall?) I can get more of the irons experience to transfer over to dots.

Edited November 18, 2021 by motosapiens

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

I think once I practice more with the dot (maybe next fall?) I can get more of the irons experience to transfer over to dots.

 

Is it an indexing issue?  Or are you not target focused when using a dot when shooting blaster targets?  If you are looking at the dot or think you may be looking at the dot versus the target have you given taping over the front of the optic a try to force yourself to not stare at the dot?  

 

Just throwing some ideas out there.

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Is it an indexing issue?  Or are you not target focused when using a dot when shooting blaster targets?  If you are looking at the dot or think you may be looking at the dot versus the target have you given taping over the front of the optic a try to force yourself to not stare at the dot?  

 

appreciate the thoughts. I have been mostly practicing with the dot taped over to learn to target focus, and it seems to be transforming my iron sights shooting, which is good.

 

I think part of it is my dot (DPP 2.5 moa) is easy for me lose track of in target focus, whereas a brighter bigger dot (like on my rfpo pistol) or a big fat iron rear sight is less easy to lose track of.

 

but wutever. I am mostly shooting SS until mid-june. Perhaps I'll get a bigger dot before then.

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I think part of it is my dot (DPP 2.5 moa)

 

The DPP Glass is not as tall as optics like the SRO, and Sig Romeo 3 Max/XL.  I find when my grip is on point the dot does not leave the glass. I follow the streak, and pull the trigger when the bottom of the streak reaches a point on the target that is an acceptable shot. I too, like larger dots and find them easier to track.