Weird DQ sequence

[Stafford]

I was loading and didn't see the first part of what eventually became a DQ for a new competitor. I hear WHOA and look up to see the shooter in the box leaning down and picking something up. The match director, who was seated and watching the action, called for the stoppage and told the competitor to holster. Apparently, the shooter had dropped something on the ground at make ready and was picking it up before starting his course of fire. And he bent over with gun in hand to pick up the item.  In the course of doing so, the match director felt that he had swept himself.

 

Everyone was confused as to what happened and the shooter must have thought he was disqualified because he left the shooting box. Another shooter shot the course of fire and the new shooter learned he was not DQ'd and could come back and start over. At make ready, he charged the slide, and a round ejected. During the confusion over the bending over sequence earlier, he had followed the orders and holstered. And, during the discussions, had never been instructed to clear the pistol. So, he had left the shooting box with a live round in the chamber. May have had the loaded mag in the whole time as well. 

 

So, at his point, he was DQ'd for unsafe handling or something of that nature. Tough deal for a new competitor. My guess is he will probably not come back. Because I missed the initial part of what happened, I tried to discuss with another shooter in our squad and figure our what had happened. This guy obviously felt that it was a big fiasco and packed up and left.

[Michael303]

Sounds like a cluster f on the MDs part.  If the competitor swept himself that should be a DQ so I'm not sure how he got to come back.  If he didn't get the competitor, who is new and relying heavily on the direction of the person giving commands, to unload and show clear at the time he stopped him I'd say that's mostly on whoever was giving the commands.  

[Stafford]

I think part of the problem was that the MD was also giving instruction to the RO over the bending over situation. And the MD said it looked like he had swept himself, but since the RO didn't call it, that there was no DQ... I think?? In any event, as the MD was discussing it with the RO, the shooter left the box thinking his day was over without being giving instructions to make his firearm safe.

 

 

[ChuckS]

And this is why anytime anything happens, the sequence is STOP, unload and show clear, holster/close/flag, range is clear. Period. No other drama until this has happened. Thanks for sharing a great example of what could happen when we depart from the script  

 

Later,

Chuck

 

[Mcfoto]

That is a bummer. Sounds like a good deed that came back to bite the MD. Also a confusing of roles. The MD was within his rights to call the stop but should have had had the RO clear the shooter. I personally have witnessed at least two new shooters DQ before their first shot. Neither came back. It is unfortunate but a necessary consequence of keeping our sport safe.  

[Cuz]

1 hour ago, Mcfoto said:

…I personally have witnessed at least two new shooters DQ before their first shot. Neither came back. It is unfortunate but a necessary consequence of keeping our sport safe.  

while I don’t necessarily disagree with you, I can’t help but think that when a new shooter is DQd so early, the rest of the squad, or at least someone there with experience needs to share a little bit of the blame. I had to DQ a new shooter a while back, and it happened because the experienced shooter that brought his new shooter friend never told anyone else in the squad that we had a new shooter. Had I known the kid was new, I would have RO’d him differently and asked if he understood the course of fire, etc. it was just a small local match, and we would have “coached” him through the process to make sure he was safe, and had fun. 
Now, as soon as I’m in a squad, before anyone starts shooting, I always ask if there are any new shooters, and if so, what there experience level is and if they want any advice or help. It makes for a much more enjoyable day. 

[DSAF61]

The original person that stopped the shooter was the MD (7.1.7)? Or was it the RM?

[Stafford]

1 minute ago, DSAF61 said:

The original person that stopped the shooter was the MD (7.1.7)? Or was it the RM?

I assumed he's the match director. Signs people in, gives the squads their tablets, timers, pasters, etc... seemingly the guy in charge of the match. 

[DSAF61]

Those two jobs, while not mutually exclusive, have different authority and responsibilities during a match. 

[Mcfoto]

48 minutes ago, Cuz said:

while I don’t necessarily disagree with you, I can’t help but think that when a new shooter is DQd so early, the rest of the squad, or at least someone there with experience needs to share a little bit of the blame. I had to DQ a new shooter a while back, and it happened because the experienced shooter that brought his new shooter friend never told anyone else in the squad that we had a new shooter. Had I known the kid was new, I would have RO’d him differently and asked if he understood the course of fire, etc. it was just a small local match, and we would have “coached” him through the process to make sure he was safe, and had fun. 
Now, as soon as I’m in a squad, before anyone starts shooting, I always ask if there are any new shooters, and if so, what there experience level is and if they want any advice or help. It makes for a much more enjoyable day. 

I have no disagreement with anything you said but the two instances I recall:

 

1. first stage was an facing up range start. Despite going last and repeated coaching from the squad to turn THEN draw, at the beep he draws, then turns.

 

2. shows up to the firing line with no gun. RO tells him to go get his gun, he hurriedly runs back, grabs it out of his range bag and holsters it in the middle of the peanut gallery.

 

While I agree that coaching of new shooters is important, sometimes nerves take over brain.

[SGT_Schultz]

5 hours ago, Stafford said:

I think part of the problem was that the MD was also giving instruction to the RO over the bending over situation. And the MD said it looked like he had swept himself, but since the RO didn't call it, that there was no DQ... I think?? In any event, as the MD was discussing it with the RO, the shooter left the box thinking his day was over without being giving instructions to make his firearm safe.

 

 

If this was a local match I'm going to assume that the match director was also acting as range master.  In that case he should have used the proper commands to unload and show clear before letting the shooter reholster.  Since he failed at that, the RO should have stepped in to maintain control and safety.

 

Just for your FYI the match director doesn't automatically have authority over the range officers.  The range master is the one who has authority over the range officers.  In level I and II matches the MD may also be the range master, or they may be two different people.

 

This was a shitshow with non-standard commands, unclear communications, and a pissed off new shooter.  Avoiding confusion is why we have standard commands and a standard sequence for such commands.  And that is why I am a stickler for that uniformity.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by SGT_Schultz

[TaterHead]

The MD should reach out to that new shooter and explain how everyone was simply not doing there jobs, it was a real good thing that no one was hurt and invite him back. This entire story borders on a worst case nightmare for the entire sport. None of this is the new shooters fault. He swept himself. Its a dq. It’s a rule. Everything after that is on those we had trusted in this new endeavor.

[Sarge]

5 hours ago, DSAF61 said:

Those two jobs, while not mutually exclusive, have different authority and responsibilities during a match. 

In level one matches the MD is typically the RM. As the MD at a local the buck stops with me.

[Kraj]

So if he loaded the gun under direction of match staff and he didn't sweep himself because he was allowed to continue the match what was he dqed for? 

[Stafford]

16 minutes ago, Kraj said:

So if he loaded the gun under direction of match staff and he didn't sweep himself because he was allowed to continue the match what was he dqed for? 

He was told to holster, which he did. Then the MD told him what the issue was and the MD continued the discussion with the RO. At some point, the shooter thought he was DQ'd and left the box. Upon learning he could still shoot, he returned to the box and was told to make ready. When he charged the slide, a round flew out, as he had not cleared before leaving the box. That's when he was DQ'd.

[twodownzero]

8 hours ago, Michael303 said:

Sounds like a cluster f on the MDs part.  If the competitor swept himself that should be a DQ so I'm not sure how he got to come back.  If he didn't get the competitor, who is new and relying heavily on the direction of the person giving commands, to unload and show clear at the time he stopped him I'd say that's mostly on whoever was giving the commands.  

 

The MD has no control over match activities.

 

8 hours ago, Stafford said:

I think part of the problem was that the MD was also giving instruction to the RO over the bending over situation. And the MD said it looked like he had swept himself, but since the RO didn't call it, that there was no DQ... I think?? In any event, as the MD was discussing it with the RO, the shooter left the box thinking his day was over without being giving instructions to make his firearm safe.

 

 

 

It is the RO's fault for not complying with the range commands.  "Holster" is not a range command.

[Flatland Shooter]

1 hour ago, TaterHead said:

The MD should reach out to that new shooter and explain how everyone was simply not doing there jobs, it was a real good thing that no one was hurt and invite him back. This entire story borders on a worst case nightmare for the entire sport. None of this is the new shooters fault. He swept himself. Its a dq. It’s a rule. Everything after that is on those we had trusted in this new endeavor.

 

After reading all the comments, TaterHead has the very best recommendations on how to proceed.  Let the shooter know that the staff messed up and there are no hard feelings toward him. 

[Intheshaw1]

48 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

After reading all the comments, TaterHead has the very best recommendations on how to proceed.  Let the shooter know that the staff messed up and there are no hard feelings toward him. 

I'd agree. I'd probably even comp his fee to the next match.

[Kraj]

1 hour ago, Stafford said:

He was told to holster, which he did. Then the MD told him what the issue was and the MD continued the discussion with the RO. At some point, the shooter thought he was DQ'd and left the box. Upon learning he could still shoot, he returned to the box and was told to make ready. When he charged the slide, a round flew out, as he had not cleared before leaving the box. That's when he was DQ'd.

 

All of that sounds like a match staff problem and nothing the shooter did wrong. I don't hear a rule that the shooter violated 

[Bakerjd]

If that's how matches are run at this club please be kind enough to tell everyone what range it is. I know I'd at least rather not shoot a match where the staff doesnt follow the very specific and easy to understand range commands. 

 

As for the guy who got the DQ. He needs an apology and a free match. 

[SGT_Schultz]

19 minutes ago, Bakerjd said:

If that's how matches are run at this club please be kind enough to tell everyone what range it is.

That should be done, but a mod will squelch that in 3...2...1.....

 

I sure as s#!t would not go to a place run like that if I knew ahead of time.

[SGT_Schultz]

2 hours ago, twodownzero said:

 

The MD has no control over match activities.

 

He sure as hell does if he's also the Range Master, which is what happens in pretty much every level 1 match I've ever been to.

 

 

2 hours ago, twodownzero said:

It is the RO's fault for not complying with the range commands.  "Holster" is not a range command.

The MD/RM was directly responsible for assuming control of the stage and creating a confusing mess.  The RO was proximately responsible for not correcting the unsafe act (shooter walking away with a pistol in an unsafe condition

[Stafford]

OK, I've shot at this range several times. Maybe 8 times? I have seen a couple of shooters DQ'd for breaking the 180. This is the first time I've seen the MD come and watch one squad and follow the entire match. Of course, maybe he always does this but it has never been in my squad. Good club, good place to compete, and I'll go back. Just a weird thing that happened this one time. 

 

 

[Bakerjd]

2 hours ago, Stafford said:

OK, I've shot at this range several times. Maybe 8 times? I have seen a couple of shooters DQ'd for breaking the 180. This is the first time I've seen the MD come and watch one squad and follow the entire match. Of course, maybe he always does this but it has never been in my squad. Good club, good place to compete, and I'll go back. Just a weird thing that happened this one time. 

 

 

If it has happened once its happened too many times. Either the MD or the RO should NEVER have that job again. 

[SGT_Schultz]

8 hours ago, Stafford said:

 Just a weird thing that happened this one time.

 

No, it's not "just a weird thing".  It was a massive failure to maintain control that led to a serious safety violation.

 

You might benefit from attending RO training.