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NROI article: Why no love for Single Stack major?


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14 hours ago, tkheard said:

Apparently, there is no love for revolver, either!

I think that goes without saying, anyone enough of a masochist to shoot revo at a USPSA match knows what they are signing up for  🙂

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7 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

I think that goes without saying, anyone enough of a masochist to shoot revo at a USPSA match knows what they are signing up for  🙂

 

We have one guy and he shoots a six shooter.  He is slow as all get out, but he has a ball.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/25/2021 at 7:52 PM, Schutzenmeister said:

 

The other thing IPSC did right, about 10-12 years ago, was to eliminate the silly restrictions of no more than 2 locations for short courses and 3 for medium courses.  That really opened up the ability to make these courses more interesting.

 

I wish USPSA would consider the same!

Funny - I must have designed only long courses, even if they only took 10-20 rounds to complete. I never felt restricted, since there's not a minimum requirement for round count for long stages......

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I shot SS minor up through USPSA Nationals, IPSC Pan Americans and the World Shoot.  

At most matches, good-shooter vs good-shooter, it is a disadvantage compared to Major.  Every now and then it's break-even or better, but that is rare.

 

At any "single stack match", designed per Jay's suggestions it's at a huge disadvantage because the only real scoring advantage to SS Minor is when you can skip a load or do it at a better place.   Despite less recoil, you can't shoot faster because you need the A's.  Far, partial & moving targets are worse.  There are more of those at major matches.  

 

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29 minutes ago, shred said:

I shot SS minor up through USPSA Nationals and the World Shoot.  

At most matches, good-shooter vs good-shooter, it is a disadvantage compared to Major.  Every now and then it's break-even or better, but that is rare.

 

At any "single stack match", designed per Jay's suggestions it's at a huge disadvantage because the only real scoring advantage to SS Minor is when you can skip a load or do it at a better place.   Despite less recoil, you can't shoot faster because you need the A's.  Far, partial & moving targets are worse.  There are more of those at major matches.  

 

 

Good explanation.

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On 6/24/2021 at 11:33 PM, PatJones said:

I just read https://nroi.org/stage-design/why-no-love-for-single-stack-major/. Perhaps the article should be titled “Why no love for Single Stack Minor”.

 

It seems to me Jay Worden is a little too worried about minor caliber Single Stack guns. Single stack is the only division where both major and minor can compete on an even playing field. Major may hold an advantage at the upper levels of Single Stack Division, but in the middle where most of us shooters reside, it’s a wash. I believe that intentionally designing matches that put Single Stack minor at a complete disadvantage is unethical.

 

Why would anyone care that an increasing number of shooters are choosing minor over major? Minor is cheaper to shoot. The reduced recoil is a plus for Juniors, Seniors and some Lady competitors. As my hands start to age, I’ve considered a move to minor myself.

 

Why is it OK to influence the outcome of any USPSA event by intentionally favoring one gun over another? When you don't allow a minor caliber Single Stack to use their 2 extra rounds anywhere in a stage, that same stage puts major caliber revolvers at a huge disadvantage. Jay’s Low-Cap Nationals in PASA Park hastened the decline of the 6 shot revolver in USPSA. There were lots of shooting positions that forced a major caliber revolver to shoot 6, reload and shoot one with nowhere to use the remaining rounds in the gun. This was OK at Revolver Nationals?

 

While I can agree with Mr. Worden that 8 shots in every position is generally poor stage design, following his recommendation of 7 shots in each position is no better. A USPSA match should provide interesting shooting challenges without intentionally favoring one gun over another. I hope we never see another USPSA Nationals like the Single Stack Classic at PASA Park.

 

I suspect major PF actually has more benefit to really good shooters rather than mediocre ones like me.  It hasn't changed my gun selection, but the better shooters have good points too and don't need the scoring advantage.  And they can shoot faster even though they tend to shoot more points.

 

That said, I don't think there is anything "unethical" at issue in this thread.  There is nothing morally relevant about stage designs putting people at a disadvantage.  We all can sign up for whatever division and use whatever equipment we went.

 

Worden's entire argument is based on planning to MISS.  It is a given that if you miss in low capacity divisions, you pay, and in a game that is designed around 8 round arrays, missing in single stack major is costly.  The solution is to NOT MISS and get your hits, not to plan to miss and then be glad you gave up the scoring advantage for 2 more rounds.  It's those costly misses that make minor even remotely viable in Single Stack, in exchange for the scoring advantage.

 

On 6/25/2021 at 6:37 AM, MemphisMechanic said:

People shoot minor primarily because most matches have several stages that suck a little bit for 10 round guns, but suck a lot for 8 round guns.

 

They’d happliy take Major 10 over Minor 10, but since that is not an option? The decision to choose capacity over power factor is made due to poor stage design factors alone. Ammo cost and felt recoil aren’t really factors in the decision, they’re just secondary benefits. The stages they encounter will almost always be won by a 10+1 gun, so that’s what they shoot.


Personally I find I wind up building really good stages if I have just 4-6 required shots in each position. The remaining targets which might cause you to fire 8 to 12 shots when you arrive somewhere? They’re positioned so they are available from several positions, or on the move, etc.

 

These generally tend to be fun stages to break down, every division is pretty happy… and you get to see all of the top guys running different plans.
 

 

I have been shooting minor for about 10 years just because I thought it was fun, 9mm is easier/cheaper to load, etc.  I don't pick my minor gun for the capacity, but I do try to notice and use the capacity advantage where I can make it pay.  I have a major gun and ammo on the shelf that fits in the same rig anytime I want it, but I also haven't shot it in years.

 

I like Jay Worden, I have RO'ed his matches and met him in person on numerous occasions.  My response to his article is that he is nuts if he thinks we should all shoot 7 round arrays so that he can miss every time he has to shoot at steel with less penalty.  The game is 8 (or less) round arrays.  If you can plan and try very hard not to miss, you get the major scoring advantage.  If not, shoot minor, and sometimes you even get a benefit to being able to shoot 10 before hitting your reload.

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47 minutes ago, twodownzero said:

[...]

in a game that is designed around 8 round arrays [...]

 

The game is 8 (or less) round arrays.  If you can plan and try very hard not to miss, you get the major scoring advantage.  [...]

 

Herein is what I believe to be an error in your logic.  The game is a maximum 8 round arrays.  Far too many designers take that as a license to always set up 8 round arrays.  This is a disservice and, frankly, somewhat boring.  What Jay did was to give examples of how to break things up differently.  You don't have to follow his exact examples.  But I would encourage folks to try to avoid the tendencey to design virtually everything in groups of 8!

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15 hours ago, Nik Habicht said:

Funny - I must have designed only long courses, even if they only took 10-20 rounds to complete. I never felt restricted, since there's not a minimum requirement for round count for long stages......

 

Again, and for the record: I have long maintained that so long as USPSA no longer has the IPSC 3-2-1 mix requirement, and given that IPSC dropped the maximum number of locations/views for short and medium stages some time ago, the most sensible thing for USPSA to do is to totally eliminate the distinction between S/M/L courses.  Simply declare something like the following:

 

Courses of fire must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

 

Let's face reality ... This is in fact what USPSA does anyway!

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

 

Herein is what I believe to be an error in your logic.  The game is a maximum 8 round arrays.  Far too many designers take that as a license to always set up 8 round arrays.  This is a disservice and, frankly, somewhat boring.  What Jay did was to give examples of how to break things up differently.  You don't have to follow his exact examples.  But I would encourage folks to try to avoid the tendencey to design virtually everything in groups of 8!

 

I think those should be the exception and not the rule.  Yes, I do want to take advanatage of my 10 round gun and eliminate a reload by shooting 6, moving, shooting 4, reloading, and completing the stage.  But that shouldn't be every stage, either.  In my experience, it's about 1 in 10 stages where I get to exploit my capacity advantage.

 

What Worden wants is to mandate it to 7 where there's steel.  I'm sorry I don't agree.  I do agree with you that it is 8 or fewer, however, and that's a rule that has been fair and worked fine for many decades.

Edited by twodownzero
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FWIW, IPSC rule is 9 or less scoring hits per position/view, but IME it's very rare for that to make a difference because they (at least not at the IPSC matches I've been to) don't do janky 9-9-9 stages.  Major SS usually wins in IPSC matches too.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, twodownzero said:

 

What Worden wants is to mandate it to 7 where there's steel. 

 

 

I've known Jay far too long to have intrepreted what he wrote as wanting to mandate something like that.  I read it as a suggestion that you could use or not.

 

1 hour ago, twodownzero said:

 

I think those should be the exception and not the rule.  Yes, I do want to take advanatage of my 10 round gun and eliminate a reload by shooting 6, moving, shooting 4, reloading, and completing the stage.  But that shouldn't be every stage, either.  In my experience, it's about 1 in 10 stages where I get to exploit my capacity advantage.

 

 

However ... You and I are clearly on the same page with the above!

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Using the Single Stack Classic/Nationals at PASA in any way shape or form to justify stage design is archaic and terrible.  That match prided itself on making minor a disadvantage and never requiring more than 3 mags to shoot CoF (the reason why long course were 24rds).  Also, to suggest that there were any 'options' at any of those matches besides the last time it was a nationals is comical. 

 

 

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On 6/25/2021 at 12:33 AM, PatJones said:

 

While I can agree with Mr. Worden that 8 shots in every position is generally poor stage design, following his recommendation of 7 shots in each position is no better. A USPSA match should provide interesting shooting challenges without intentionally favoring one gun over another. I hope we never see another USPSA Nationals like the Single Stack Classic at PASA Park.

 

Have no fear... the PASA crew burned every bridge known with USPSA.  I doubt they'll ever have anything there after the s#!tshow that was the 2017 SSN/SSC.

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On 7/9/2021 at 1:42 PM, twodownzero said:

 

 

I like Jay Worden, I have RO'ed his matches and met him in person on numerous occasions.  My response to his article is that he is nuts if he thinks we should all shoot 7 round arrays so that he can miss every time he has to shoot at steel with less penalty.  The game is 8 (or less) round arrays.  If you can plan and try very hard not to miss, you get the major scoring advantage.  If not, shoot minor, and sometimes you even get a benefit to being able to shoot 10 before hitting your reload.

 

This was part of the PASA park thought process for running their matches... I personally believe it was because Dick^2 were both very much anti minor/1911s should be 45acp mindsets. 

 

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30 minutes ago, mikeg1005 said:

Using the Single Stack Classic/Nationals at PASA in any way shape or form to justify stage design is archaic and terrible.  That match prided itself on making minor a disadvantage and never requiring more than 3 mags to shoot CoF (the reason why long course were 24rds).  Also, to suggest that there were any 'options' at any of those matches besides the last time it was a nationals is comical. 

 

 

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16 hours ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

This was part of the PASA park thought process for running their matches... I personally believe it was because Dick^2 were both very much anti minor/1911s should be 45acp mindsets. 

 

The joke was that if they could figure out a way to disadvantage the .40 1911s, they'd do that too.  :D

 

I shot that match in minor because I blew up my major gun the day before I left for it.  At least I can say more recent USPSA SS Nats have been less heavily biased towards major, but it's still an easy call to pick Major for nats because you won't be able to pick up enough time with the odd saved reload or makeup shot to offset the points difference.

  

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22 hours ago, mikeg1005 said:

 

This was part of the PASA park thought process for running their matches... I personally believe it was because Dick^2 were both very much anti minor/1911s should be 45acp mindsets. 

 

 

We all see how well that worked out for them, which I see you already addressed.  I fear the division is dead or dying anyway, but lately it seems like all they can talk about is adding divisions rather than combining them, so maybe they will replace Single Stack with two new divisions.  I propose a .45 ACP John Browning based SBR PCC division.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Recent nationals results show there's no real reason not to allow SS guns to shoot in Production (Minor only scoring, natch), but the Major guns that were the original backbone of the sport don't really have a good place to go.  L10 is a bit problematic, and equally moribund.

 

 

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On 7/12/2021 at 3:06 PM, mikeg1005 said:

 

Have no fear... the PASA crew burned every bridge known with USPSA.  I doubt they'll ever have anything there after the s#!tshow that was the 2017 SSN/SSC.

I was an RO for the SSN/SSC at PASA in 2008.

 

It was a s#!tshow then too.

 

There was a SNAFU with the match hotel room.  We pitched our bitch about it.

 

The problem with the room only got resolved when I got on the phone with my girlfriend and started giving her directions to the match hotel.  I had carpooled up there with a “buddy” at the time.

 

So at the end of the match when there was the RO only drawings (names on slips of paper drawn out of a hat), our two names never got drawn because they were intentionally never put in there.

 

Yes, I am still bitter about it.

 

Argghh…

 

 

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