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Why a Safety in Production?


Jim Watson
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From what I see, the leading "production" gun with a hammer is a CZ with Cooper Selective DA/SA.  That is, with a proper thumb safety... that you cannot use, you must ease the hammer down for a DA start.  The Beretta 92X Performance Production likewise, if I ever saw one being shot.

 

Why?  

Why not a decocker?  I know, you are careful and you are not going to slip lowering the hammer, blah, blah.  I was too, while shooting a pre-B about 20 years ago.  But not everybody is as careful... or as lucky.

 

It would take some cooperation from the manufacturer, I don't see any three pound decocker guns in the catalog and heavier seems better these days.  

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This ^^^^^^^.  Plus you can also shoot Limited minor if you chose to.  I RO and I do see some decockers.  Most of the more serious shooters using CZ go for the safety models and add brass grips and magwell.  My buddy's Production CZ weighs more than one of my Open guns.

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4 hours ago, CZ85Combat said:

It's all about the trigger. The fact is the safety model has a better trigger and can be improved more then the decocker models.

 

There is no difference in how you can tune a non-decocker and a decocker CZ if both have the firing pin safety.  The decocker has zero interface with the sear when the decocking lever is at rest.  It doesn't impact trigger travel, sear engagement, or disconnector geometry in any way.

 

The non FPB action can have a nicer reset because the trigger bar doesn't have to travel fwd as far to deal with the FP lifter and so the disconnector's geometry can be setup to provide a near instant reset.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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5 hours ago, Jim Watson said:

From what I see, the leading "production" gun with a hammer is a CZ with Cooper Selective DA/SA.  That is, with a proper thumb safety... that you cannot use, you must ease the hammer down for a DA start.  The Beretta 92X Performance Production likewise, if I ever saw one being shot.

 

Why?  

Why not a decocker?  I know, you are careful and you are not going to slip lowering the hammer, blah, blah.  I was too, while shooting a pre-B about 20 years ago.  But not everybody is as careful... or as lucky.

 

It would take some cooperation from the manufacturer, I don't see any three pound decocker guns in the catalog and heavier seems better these days.  

 

The CZ Shadows have no firing pin block, which means their disconnector can be tuned to have a very short reset.  For whatever reason, none of the Shadow models has a decocker.  If one of them did, you can still tune it to have a crazy short reset because the decocker has zero influence on the lockwork until you depress it.  Then it trips the sear just enough to release the hammer but keep the sear up enough to catch the hammer on the half cock notch.

 

CZs with a manual safety and a firing pin block (75B, SP-01) cannot be tuned to have a reset like the Shadows.

 

Double and single action trigger weight and sear engagement can be tuned to the same degree on all CZs, within the typical sample to sample variation that a mass produced pistol always has.

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2 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

So basically, there's no reason why the Shadow 2, a gun made for production division, doesn't have a decocker?

 

Demand would need to justify the cost of cataloging and inventory, which might be pretty hard on a designed for competition right out of the box production gun. I think the subset of competition shooters serious enough to pay above $1000 for a competition gun but uncomfortable with lowering the hammer on a typical CZ or revolver might be very small. 

 

 

Edited by IHAVEGAS
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6 hours ago, Blackstone45 said:

So basically, there's no reason why the Shadow 2, a gun made for production division, doesn't have a decocker?

It may have been designed primarily for production but there are many being used in Limited or even built for Open. Those guys like their hammer back starts

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2 reasons, the decocker is in a crappy place on the BD guns and would be negatively effected by most people's grip. Secondly all the garage gunsmiths would hate dealing with the internals on a BD gun.

 

There is a certain simplicity in the Shadow guns that nothing adding a decocker would make better.

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To add to what has already been posted, safety models can be converted to Single Action Only while this makes little sense with a decocker. Because a safety model can be converted to SAO you can increase the Hammer Spring weight without increasing the DA pull weight. Some folks prefer the feel of a Single Action pull with a higher weight Hammer Spring.

 

This was already touched on but the safety levers can make a nice strong hand thumb rest.

 

I agree that the myth of CZ 75 variant safety model Trigger superiority will never die. I have encounter the subject many times since i got into tinkering with CZs. It is nice to see this subject come up and be correctly explained in detail.

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5 hours ago, rowdyb said:

 the decocker is in a crappy place on the BD guns and would be negatively effected by most people's grip. Secondly all the garage gunsmiths would hate dealing with the internals on a BD gun.

Not sure how you can extrapolate from you to everyone else so conclusively.

 

The 75's lockwork already sucks so much to work on that adding a few more pieces hardly makes a difference.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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   In my expediences dealing with the subject, it is not the extra parts in a CZ decocker that throw people off, it is the difference in how the Sear Cage/Ejector is retained into the Frame. Reassembling a CZ 75 decocker can present an increased challenge over a safety model, especially for those without the right mindset, tools and knowledge. Limits to manual dexterity can also figure into the equation. Though this also applies to safety models, it may apply more so to decockers in my experiences. 

 

While i find working on CZ decockers fun, i can see why some folks choose to avoid it. I generally try not to dissuade others from working on CZ deockers, but i recognize that it is not for everyone.

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On 6/23/2021 at 5:16 PM, SGT_Schultz said:

 

 X There is no difference in how you can tune a non-decocker and a decocker CZ if both have the firing pin safety.  The decocker has zero interface with the sear when the decocking lever is at rest.  It doesn't impact trigger travel, sear engagement, or disconnector geometry in any way.

 

The non FPB action can have a nicer reset because the trigger bar doesn't have to travel fwd as far to deal with the FP lifter and so the disconnector's geometry can be setup to provide a near instant reset.

Not arguing with you, but my Beretta 92X Performance, with a firing pin block has a trigger reset that rivals 1911 trigger reset. It also has a better SA trigger than my Shadow 2 with  bunch of CGW parts (short reset trigger, adjustable sear, nice springs, etc.). The Shadow2 has a better DA trigger. If Beretta, LOK, Hogue, VZ, or any of the other grip makers ever got off their collective hind-ends and came out with a nice G10 classic profile (hump back) grip adapter, I'd give the Beretta the nod over the CZ, but with the garbage plastic grip conversion Beretta provides, the CZ is the more ergonomic gun. 

 

Still waiting on the grip conversion from someone, just not holding my breath anymore.

 

And why would CZ go through the trouble of making a rear sight adjustable for elevation only, FFS it's a competition gun, give me the ability to adjust my rear sight for both elevation and windage.

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On 6/25/2021 at 2:50 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

The 75's lockwork already sucks so much to work on that adding a few more pieces hardly makes a difference.

This is so true it's funny. So many tiny parts, tiny springs, "secret" levers (the detent to get the thumb safety all the way in), it makes you wonder about the mind of the cat who designed the gun.

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9 hours ago, robertg5322 said:

This is so true it's funny. So many tiny parts, tiny springs, "secret" levers (the detent to get the thumb safety all the way in), it makes you wonder about the mind of the cat who designed the gun.

 

I agree that you need guidance to learn the little tricks (use a closely sized slave pin when replacing the sear - a tiny Philips works great for positioning the sear spring - etc) , but to me it seems like after you have read the guidance and done it a few times you have sort of paid the price of admission and after that working on the safety style CZ's is no big deal and I think it is fun (sick mind?) . Have never touched a decocker style gun.

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12 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

I agree that you need guidance to learn the little tricks (use a closely sized slave pin when replacing the sear - a tiny Philips works great for positioning the sear spring - etc) , but to me it seems like after you have read the guidance and done it a few times you have sort of paid the price of admission and after that working on the safety style CZ's is no big deal and I think it is fun (sick mind?) . Have never touched a decocker style gun.

You Sir, are a masochist. 

 

And I mean that in a good way.

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On 6/24/2021 at 6:23 AM, Blackstone45 said:

So basically, there's no reason why the Shadow 2, a gun made for production division, doesn't have a decocker?

I am pretty sure that CZ doesn't put a decocker on non firing pin safety models for "safety" reasons.  In theory if the hammer fails to stop at decock the gun still won't go off.  

 

You can buy an SP-01 and cajunize it if you want a decocker gun.

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23 hours ago, Jeff226 said:

I am pretty sure that CZ doesn't put a decocker on non firing pin safety models for "safety" reasons.  In theory if the hammer fails to stop at decock the gun still won't go off.  

 

You can buy an SP-01 and cajunize it if you want a decocker gun.

This makes sense

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On 6/24/2021 at 4:23 AM, Blackstone45 said:

So basically, there's no reason why the Shadow 2, a gun made for production division, doesn't have a decocker?

i have owned a cz with a decocker, and they are generally harder to work on so I prefer the manual safety models for competition. I carry a decocker model tho (p01).

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  • 2 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

But if you really, really wanted one, you could always have one made.  Just have to pay the $.

 

Anyone know anyone who has?

 

And, like everyone else said, you're probably better off buying something made for that if that's what you wanted but what the heck, it's your $. Have fun.

Edited by lfine
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