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Lightweight Alternative to 10/22 (and 15-22) for SC


RickT
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Posted (edited)

My wife has identical Kidd 10-22 with Wiland Barrels.  These rifles see practices 2x/week and 2 4-stage matches per week (winter excluded).  I'm experience in cleaning magazines, cleaning the rifles, ....  , but we're at our  wits end keeping these things running with the assortment of ammo we're being forced to use;  much more of a problem than with her two Ruger 22/45 Lite competition guns.

 

What's out there that can be made to weight in at 3-1/2 lbs. or so that does not use these nefarious rotary mags?  I have a CMMG ar22 upper that runs 100% with the S&W mags and with a LW barrel and polymer lower I suppose the weight might get close, but anything else?

Edited by RickT
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Well... there are pretty much 3 options worth a dang it seems that can get you to the weight goal you have set.  10/22s of various ilk.  For assortment ammo I have found that the TK chamber iron is a life saver, actually.  This - even with occasional WTF moments of reliability - seems to be one of the best ways to go.

Buckmark rifles - worked over by 'some dude' that is pretty much always backed up...   Without his magic I wouldn't mess with them really - but I'm not a buckmark fan in general.

S&W 15/22 - with all the Taccom 3G goodies you can get on there.  Barrel - carbon fiber hand guard, etc.  Tim Ubl knows how to make them go fast and the magazines are very reliable.  They do have issues - like extractor issues mostly.  But good guns as well as light.

 

 

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Rick, tighten the springs in the rotary mags one additional step.  Turn the rotor clockwise until it catches the spring, then another half turn.  That is zero.  Tighten 9 steps and lock in.  That cures the vast majority of feeding problems with troublesome ammo.

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Are you finding weaker ammo causing problems? or something else? what kind of problems?

 

we've had pretty good success with Tresa's 10-22 once we replaced the bolt (her stock ruger bolt was out of spec and the extractor sat too far from the breech face), and used a lighter recoil spring. It still doesn't like feeding hollowpoints due to the shorter OAL (they miss the barrel and slide up), but it's been 100% with blazer and aguila roundnose bullets.

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I know this doesn’t answer your question but in regards to ammo, I’m shooting a Magnum Research and it hates anything over 1200fps. It won’t shoot CCI Mini mags. I think the spring is too weak and it’s cycling to fast. Federal ammo is just dirty. I’ve had good luck with CCI AR ammo. CCI has had ammo for weeks now in the mornings. 
 

If I keep my mags clean, I might have one jam per match if at all(my Black Mamba jams more). My setup weights in at 3 1/4lbs. Briley barrel, Crazy Ivan chassis. 

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21 hours ago, chrsb said:

I know this doesn’t answer your question but in regards to ammo, I’m shooting a Magnum Research and it hates anything over 1200fps. It won’t shoot CCI Mini mags. I think the spring is too weak and it’s cycling to fast. Federal ammo is just dirty. I’ve had good luck with CCI AR ammo. CCI has had ammo for weeks now in the mornings. 
 

If I keep my mags clean, I might have one jam per match if at all(my Black Mamba jams more). My setup weights in at 3 1/4lbs. Briley barrel, Crazy Ivan chassis. 

 

wait, wut? that's your idea of good luck? I'm willing to accept a malfunction every 500-1000 rds. Any more than that is a problem that needs to be fixed. We had zero malfs at worlds out of 2 shooters and 9 guns (1800+ rounds), and none since then in practice or local matches either.

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, chrsb said:

I’m shooting a Magnum Research and it hates anything over 1200fps.

 

Buy and install the Kidd 10% heavy recoil spring.  He sells three.  The 10% light is great with all standard velocity.  The standard is great with CCI AR Tactical, Geco Semi Auto and the like.  Use the heavy spring for MiniMags, Eley Force, etc.

 

BTW, some pistol mags are more finicky than 10/22 rotary mags.  If you are using Ruger mags you HAVE to disassemble, deburr, polish and tweak the feed lips.  After that they should run 100% until the mag spring weakens.  You have to change them frequently, at least three times a season if you shoot a lot.

 

I got tired of that, and the same with Browning mags.  Now I shoot 22 in a 1911 with mags with real mag springs.  Problems solved.

Edited by zzt
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20 minutes ago, zzt said:

 If you are using Ruger mags you HAVE to disassemble, deburr, polish and tweak the feed lips.  After that they should run 100% until the mag spring weakens.  You have to change them frequently, at least three times a season if you shoot a lot.

 

I got tired of that, and the same with Browning mags.  Now I shoot 22 in a 1911 with mags with real mag springs.  Problems solved.

 

i must be doing it wrong. I have literally never replaced springs in a 22 mag, and never done any tuning on the mags, and we have a ruger, 2 vq's and a buckmark that will happily run 500-1000 rounds without a hiccup with a variety of ammo. Up til this year tho, we only shot every week.

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13 hours ago, motosapiens said:

must be doing it wrong. I have literally never replaced springs in a 22 mag,

 

Then you are lucky to have good mags.  The Ruger mags would not run in my Scorpion until I did that.  Browning mags in the full race Buckmark were much better, but still needed tweaking.  Even the springs in my 1911 22 mags occasionally need replacing.  They still work, but allow 11 rounds to be loaded.  That's a no no in NJ.

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I don't have a scale to weigh my SC rifle, but I'll forward this suggestion... I, too, was disappointed  with a 10/22 and historically reliable rotary 10 round magazines for a build... in full disclosure, I did not use a Ruger receiver but a BRN22 with integral 1913 rail and BRN barrel... BX trigger, AR furniture, and housed in a PMACA lightweight chassis...

 

what I now use is a SBR with a 10.5" (with flash hider) CMMG dedicated barrel and collar bolt system... I added a Bore Buddy heavy duty firing pin, and under cut the extractor... the trigger is an old school RRA NM trigger, Holosun 510c jumbo scope, SOCOM style B5 stock and Hogue grip, BlackDog polymer magazines... handles very quickly, less muzzle travel to target, easy to access barrel, chamber, and bolt face for cleaning and lube.. the extractor has a positive first class lever design... the high cap magazines offer only one interruption to the shot string... I don't travel across state lines to participate in matches, so having a short barreled rifle is not a problem...I justified the cost of the tax stamp and setting up the revocable living trust for another purpose, the .22 give me an opportunity to shoot it a lot.

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follow up to my above post... in looking at the problems I encountered with the rotary 10/22 magazines, I measured the fore - aft distance at the top of the magazine... my older black rotor magazines (which I had virtually no problems with when I shot the Sportsman's Team Challenge) were  around 1.497"... the range of my new purchase red rotor magazines varied from a short  length of 1.480 to longest of 1.487,

 

since both the feed ramp and ejector are located on the feed lip, my supposition is that the problems I encountered came from a non repeatable seating of the magazine in the receiver... when I shimmed the magazines with duct tape, reliability increased... regards

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On 6/4/2021 at 11:32 AM, RickT said:

My wife has identical Kidd 10-22 with Wiland Barrels.  These rifles see practices 2x/week and 2 4-stage matches per week (winter excluded).  I'm experience in cleaning magazines, cleaning the rifles, ....  , but we're at our  wits end keeping these things running with the assortment of ammo we're being forced to use;  much more of a problem than with her two Ruger 22/45 Lite competition guns.

 

What's out there that can be made to weight in at 3-1/2 lbs. or so that does not use these nefarious rotary mags?  I have a CMMG ar22 upper that runs 100% with the S&W mags and with a LW barrel and polymer lower I suppose the weight might get close, but anything else?

 

What exactly are the problems you are having with the 10/22's and what exactly are the parts lists of them, ie... Kidd receiver, Wiland ??? Barrels, XYZ chassis, ABC triggers, Joe Blow Bolt, Hack Fu extractor, etc...?  I don't have any personal experience with the Wiland barrels, what are the chambers, match, benz, sporter???  How many rounds after cleaning before they start malfunctioning?

 

My wife and I both use 10/22's for Steel Challenge that are a mixture of parts, but they are extremely reliable.  I field strip and clean them before every match by taking out the bolt and cleaning the bolt and breach faces, scrubbing the chamber until they pass the 'plunk' test and dragging a bore snake through the barrel and using compressed air to blow out the trigger assembly.  I clean and lube the receiver, exterior of the bolt, guide rod, spring, and charging handle using either Hornady One Shot Gun Cleaner and Lube with Dynaglide or WD-40 Specialist Dry Lube with PTFE.  I do not use oil.  

 

I detail strip the trigger group and the bolt maybe twice a year, or when I start feeling guilty about not having done it, which winds up being about every 6 months!

 

As Les pointed out above, the fit of the magazines to the chassis/receiver is important.  Too tight or too loose can cause problems.

 

Nolan

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A friend of mine has a Kidd 10/22.  The BX-25's were a disaster.  He tried adding epoxy, etc. and they were a little better but still unreliable.  He tried black BX-1......not much better.  Most of us with other platforms had gone to the Tandemkross clear double mags......he finally switched to them and now his gun is 100% reliable.  Most of us also switched to the VQ extractor and run the minus 10% recoil spring.

 

We snug up the rotary spring and then turn approximately 1-3/4 to 2 turns.  I use the TK tool kit.  I mark one side of the T handle with silver marker and just use that visual to keep up with my rotation/turns.  Works for me.

 

Wiland or other short/sleeved barrels.  We have found them not to be 100% reliable with standard velocity ammo.  They work fine with HV ammo.  If you want a barrel that is comparable in weight but a full 16", then look at the Briley Raptor....it is around 11.5 oz.  Being a full 16" it is reliable for SV and HV ammo.

 

Ammo.............due to the current shortage, we see folks using bulk ammo in matches.  Many of the these types of ammo are just not 100% reliable.  If you want to get satisfied that a gun is 100% reliable, I would suggest using good quality ammo to test out your set up.  Once satsified, then when you use the grab bag ammo you can reasonably know that malfunctions are ammo related.   This has been my experience........you may have different circumstances.  

 

BTW.......in my stock of match ammo is Aguila.  I like Aguila and if you clean your gun often it is good stuff.  But not when it is cold weather.........the heavier wax on Aguila can slow down things.  Some of the wax can be rolled off in a cloth.  Some other less quality ammo such as Amscor also has a lot of coating.  Just something to watch for since this will effect the cycling of the bolt and feeding.  

 

 

  

 

 

 

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Not all SV ammo is created equal.  CCI Sv does have occasional problems in Wiland barrels.  It averages 975 fps.  Eley Target averages 1015 and works 100% in a Wiland barrel.  Surprising since the difference in rated fps is only 20.  Eley Target and Fiocchi Sv are super, super accurate in my Wiland barrel.  I think I might try a Briley Raptor just to see.  I have a boatload of CCI SV and would rather save the Eley Target for bullseye.

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