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Is this a Disqualification ("DQ")?


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At the 2021 Golden Bullet Championship this Memorial Day weekend we had the following happen:

 

 

Can you spot the offense and cite the rule number? 

 

I share this video at the request of the owner so that other's may learn from his mistake. It took out his whole match and up to that point, he was shooting well. 

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1 hour ago, ChuckS said:

If he was checking his dot as he was coming forward, he tripped over 10.5.19.

Agreed but the video shows basically nothing?

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2 hours ago, ChuckS said:

If he was checking his dot as he was coming forward, he tripped over 10.5.19.

 

Did he turn it on or simply look through the optic?

 

If it's the former, agree 100%.  If it's the latter, I think it's a stretch to call that "manipulation" and it definitely doesn't meet the definition of "sight picture".

 

 

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I don't see how looking through the sight glass with the PCC pointed straight up fits into rule 10.5.19. The only thing that even comes close in rule 10.5.19 based on what is shown in the video is the restriction on not taking a "Sight Picture". "Sight Picture" is defined in the appendix of the rule book as "Aiming at a target without actually shooting at it". If the competitor is looking through the glass with the PCC pointed straight upwards then they are obviously not aiming at a target.

 

If I was that competitor and got issued a DQ for that, I would arbitrate the call without hesitation.

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1 minute ago, CHA-LEE said:

I don't see how looking through the sight glass with the PCC pointed straight up fits into rule 10.5.19. The only thing that even comes close in rule 10.5.19 based on what is shown in the video is the restriction on not taking a "Sight Picture". "Sight Picture" is defined in the appendix of the rule book as "Aiming at a target without actually shooting at it". If the competitor is looking through the glass with the PCC pointed straight upwards then they are obviously not aiming at a target.

 

If I was that competitor and got issued a DQ for that, I would arbitrate the call without hesitation.

 

Agreed

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2 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

At the 2021 Golden Bullet Championship this Memorial Day weekend we had the following happen:

 

 

Can you spot the offense and cite the rule number? 

 

I share this video at the request of the owner so that other's may learn from his mistake. It took out his whole match and up to that point, he was shooting well. 

 

I don't see any breach that would support a DQ

 

If one happened, it didn't happen while the shooter was in the camera's FOV

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For the competitor involved in this situation it should be a good learning lesson about how important it is to know the rules yourself. Knowing the rules will keep the over zealous or misguided RO's in check and keep the situation from becoming a distraction that disrupts your match performance.

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14 minutes ago, CHA-LEE said:

For the competitor involved in this situation it should be a good learning lesson about how important it is to know the rules yourself. Knowing the rules will keep the over zealous or misguided RO's in check and keep the situation from becoming a distraction that disrupts your match performance.

Very well put, Charlie! 

 

I talked to a staff member from the match and the shooter was coming off a staging table and moving toward the stage area. The DQ was called for "sight picture at the staging table". Something may of happened before he came into the FOV. In any case, if you know the rules, you can likely avoid situations like this.

 

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My apologies for not laying out the location of the offense. This all happened while he was at the PCC table and NOT the Safety Area. So when we all review 10.5.19 we find (emphasis added):

 

"10.5.19 - Failing to point the muzzle of a PCC at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a conveyance or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. The berm/backstop is not required while removing/returning a properly flagged PCC from/to a vehicle providing all other safety rules are followed."

 

Since the gun handling was not in a Safety Area, the shooter violates rule 10.5.19. Those are very experienced RO's and they both knew instantly what happened. You can tell, in a way, their body language indicates that they are disappointed in what happened. Never, ever, does a RO enjoy disqualifying a competitor. I personally had to DQ 5 competitors over the long weekend and I HATED every time I was forced to let a competitor go. This thread is to help others learn from this shooter's mistake so as to not repeat to their own detriment. 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Very well put, Charlie! 

 

I talked to a staff member from the match and the shooter was coming off a staging table and moving toward the stage area. The DQ was called for "sight picture at the staging table". Something may of happened before he came into the FOV. In any case, if you know the rules, you can likely avoid situations like this.

 

 

You beat my typing by about 1 minute. Sorry I did not better explain the situation. You are correct, this was a staging table. 

Edited by Nevadazielmeister
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8 minutes ago, Shootingaggie said:

Wasn’t he under their supervision at that point?

Supervision in that rule is talking about supervision & control of the competitor during the COF. 

 

You may look down the sights / optic of the PCC at the safety area, or after "Make Ready" at the COF, but nowhere else. That includes at the sky, or even the berm where you can uncase it outside of the safety area. 

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I had a great time at the match. Hadn't heard about dq's but was surprised at the number when I saw the results including a couple of guys I shoot with regularly. It only takes a second to happen. 

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2 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

Did he turn it on or simply look through the optic?

 

If it's the former, agree 100%.  If it's the latter, I think it's a stretch to call that "manipulation" and it definitely doesn't meet the definition of "sight picture".

 

 

I have to side with this.

I didn't see anything that supports and meets the standards of a DQ.

If I missed it, I'm sure we'll know soon.

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38 minutes ago, Hdiamond said:

Supervision in that rule is talking about supervision & control of the competitor during the COF. 

 

You may look down the sights / optic of the PCC at the safety area, or after "Make Ready" at the COF, but nowhere else. That includes at the sky, or even the berm where you can uncase it outside of the safety area. 

That is not what the rules as currently written support. You also need to read the definition of a “Sight Picture” in the rule book which consists of the sights on a target. I highly doubt there was a target between his gun and the staging table to see through his sight, or up in the air as he is walking to the start position. 
 

If he was finger banging the gun or sight itself then that is clearly a violation. 
 

There is a difference between reading rules and interpreting them as they are written vs coming up with a random thought in how you would like the rules to work then trying to force them into that made up reality. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Hdiamond said:

Supervision in that rule is talking about supervision & control of the competitor during the COF. 

 

You may look down the sights / optic of the PCC at the safety area, or after "Make Ready" at the COF, but nowhere else. That includes at the sky, or even the berm where you can uncase it outside of the safety area. 

This is how I've understood it after taking my RO class 2 years ago. PCC can not look through sight unless either they are the shooter and the make ready has been given or they are at a safe table. And I've seen a few very high level shooters sent home for this very thing. Every time the excuse was "well we can do it in 3 gun".

 

But @CHA-LEE has brought up a very interesting point in that sight picture is defined in the rule book. And looking through the sight while the PCC is pointed at the sky is 100% not a sight picture. 

 

I'd be very interested in what NROI had to say about this but.... there are a lot of things I here from them and am more confused afterward. 

Edited by Bakerjd
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5 hours ago, Hdiamond said:

You may look down the sights / optic of the PCC at the safety area, or after "Make Ready" at the COF, but nowhere else. That includes at the sky, or even the berm where you can uncase it outside of the safety area. 

 

Interpretation not supported by the rules as written.  Don't know where it came from but I disagree with it 100%

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Nevadazielmeister said:

My apologies for not laying out the location of the offense. This all happened while he was at the PCC table and NOT the Safety Area. So when we all review 10.5.19 we find (emphasis added):

 

"10.5.19 - Failing to point the muzzle of a PCC at a side berm or back stop during casing/uncasing or removing/replacing on a conveyance or sweeping any person with the muzzle of a PCC, whether loaded or not, even if a chamber flag is inserted. Side berms/backstops may be used for casing and uncasing or removing from/placing on conveyances only. All other gun handling with the PCC, e.g., sight pictures, turning dots on/off, etc., must be accomplished in a safety area or under the direct supervision of a Range Officer. The berm/backstop is not required while removing/returning a properly flagged PCC from/to a vehicle providing all other safety rules are followed."

 

Since the gun handling was not in a Safety Area, the shooter violates rule 10.5.19. Those are very experienced RO's and they both knew instantly what happened. You can tell, in a way, their body language indicates that they are disappointed in what happened. Never, ever, does a RO enjoy disqualifying a competitor. I personally had to DQ 5 competitors over the long weekend and I HATED every time I was forced to let a competitor go. This thread is to help others learn from this shooter's mistake so as to not repeat to their own detriment. 

 

This was 100% a bad call.  Zero "gun handling" took place in that video other than uncasing the rifle.  And note also that "handling" is defined in the rulebook.

 

Looking through the sight at the sky or ground does not meet the definition of a sight picture.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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I’m with Charlie on this one. It seems that this incident proves that 10.5.19 needs to be worded to specifically prohibit looking into an optic at all, not just “sight picture “ if that is what is intended. The “e.g.” is what introduces different “interpretations” of the rule, and I suppose at that point it is up to the RM, but still should be clarified if it is something that happens often and is allowed in 3 Gun. We want to be inclusive, right?

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Posted (edited)
52 minutes ago, Silverscooby27 said:

I’m with Charlie on this one. It seems that this incident proves that 10.5.19 needs to be worded to specifically prohibit looking into an optic at all, not just “sight picture “ if that is what is intended. The “e.g.” is what introduces different “interpretations” of the rule, and I suppose at that point it is up to the RM, but still should be clarified if it is something that happens often and is allowed in 3 Gun. We want to be inclusive, right?

 

3 Gun rules do not apply in a USPSA match. 

 

If you are going to shoot a specific USPSA division, then read the USPSA rules.  If you don't understand those rules, then ask the highest level official at that match, the MD.  If he can't answer your question, he'll know who can and should reach out to them.  Hell, I've done it using text messages during a match.  It's handy to know a NROI Instructor in the same time zone, let alone the same state.

 

The gentleman who called "stop" is wearing a gold colored jersey indicating 15+ years as a range officer.  He probably has run quite a few shooters and possibly more PCC's than showed up at your local L1 match.

 

Lesson learned.  Sometimes the hard lessons are the most remembered.

 

BC

 

 

 

 

Edited by BillChunn
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