Jump to content
Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

Too much gas?


pealandco
 Share

Recommended Posts

Tried 3n38 yesterday at the range for my 9 Major load. I have been using 9.6gr of AA7 behind a 124gr Everglades JHP V2 bullet, which runs the gun fairly flat and not a lot of push. The 8.8gr 3n38 load that I tested yesterday didn’t feel as good and seemed to push the gun a lot more than I wanted. Got back home and reviewed some of the practice video, where it looks like a lot of gas coming out of the front of the gun and even the ejection port. 8.8 out of this gun is around 175-177 PF, so I’m thinking of dropping it down to 8.4 for 172 PF. Videos below. 
 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Kevrend said:

Do you have any footage of your previous load for comparison?


Sure do, but not from that same angle. 1st video is me shooting some plates with the same 9.6 AA7 load and the 2nd is a comparison of different AA7 loads and N350. The 9.6 AA7 happens to be the 1st one in the 2nd video.

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having and using both powders for Open, I can tell you that the AA&/SWMP powder is the best, IMO.  The extra push you felt with the lighter charge of 3N38 was because it didn't make as much gas as the AA7 load and the comp baffles were not pushed on as hard.  If you want even flatter, use 115 JHPs.

 

I cannot fit enough 3N38 in a 9mm case to make major with a 115 and still seat the bullet to 1.161", so I'm using that for minor.  10.2 gr SWMP/AA7 under a 115 JHP for 169 PF works in both Open guns.  10.4 is a tad flatter and a little harsher.  10.4 is compressed slightly while 10.2 is not.  I use 6.8 gr 3N38 under a 124 JHP or 7.2 under a 115 JHP for my (minor) SCSA loads in my 1911 Open gun.

 

Your AA7 load shoots considerably flatter than the 3N38 load.  I question your PF estimates.  8.4 3N38 under a 124 does not make major in my guns.

 

To see if you are making too much gas, hold the muzzle an inch away from a white no shoot and fire.  If you get minimal splatter about the size of a quarter, you do not have too much gas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, zzt said:

Having and using both powders for Open, I can tell you that the AA&/SWMP powder is the best, IMO.  The extra push you felt with the lighter charge of 3N38 was because it didn't make as much gas as the AA7 load and the comp baffles were not pushed on as hard.  If you want even flatter, use 115 JHPs.

 

I cannot fit enough 3N38 in a 9mm case to make major with a 115 and still seat the bullet to 1.161", so I'm using that for minor.  10.2 gr SWMP/AA7 under a 115 JHP for 169 PF works in both Open guns.  10.4 is a tad flatter and a little harsher.  10.4 is compressed slightly while 10.2 is not.  I use 6.8 gr 3N38 under a 124 JHP or 7.2 under a 115 JHP for my (minor) SCSA loads in my 1911 Open gun.

 

Your AA7 load shoots considerably flatter than the 3N38 load.  I question your PF estimates.  8.4 3N38 under a 124 does not make major in my guns.

 

To see if you are making too much gas, hold the muzzle an inch away from a white no shoot and fire.  If you get minimal splatter about the size of a quarter, you do not have too much gas.

 

The paper test is definitely on my list of things to try. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. Here's my load data for 3N38. Seems I just have a fast barrel and also no popple holes.

 

image.png.27726573b0af1d130e2d7d05e1cb6228.png

 

image.png.212218b5e1edc9ba780498f439cdc668.png

 

image.png.369b55dcb319d1fb5a7334be4b2b8473.png

 

image.png.f2e9d48f51d25b9812019dfccaa7e836.png

 

image.png.7c6bc2da4bc854989ffa8d36ccb80825.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would suggest videoing it in slow motion to see what is really happening and exactly when.

 

As far as the "Too much gas?" question, the movement of the dot should tell you that. When my Open gun has a "Too much gas" ammo config the dot dives straight down as soon as the shot fires. With the proper volume of gas vs the port/popple hole config the dot should smoothly rise as the slide starts to come backwards.

 

To be totally honest, your weak grip and bent elbow arm position is creating a crap ton of excessive gun movement that isn't needed. You will likely need to fix that stuff before worrying about how much gas is too much or not enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

I would suggest videoing it in slow motion to see what is really happening and exactly when.

 

As far as the "Too much gas?" question, the movement of the dot should tell you that. When my Open gun has a "Too much gas" ammo config the dot dives straight down as soon as the shot fires. With the proper volume of gas vs the port/popple hole config the dot should smoothly rise as the slide starts to come backwards.

 

To be totally honest, your weak grip and bent elbow arm position is creating a crap ton of excessive gun movement that isn't needed. You will likely need to fix that stuff before worrying about how much gas is too much or not enough.


That bad, huh? I did buy your book so I’ll make sure to read the section on stance. 🙂
 

Grip strength is one area that I’ve put some effort into recently. Curious what you’re seeing? Wrist separation or just overall weak grip? I’ve been looking to see if the trigger guard lifts off my hand in video, and I thought that was something that I had fixed. 

Edited by pealandco
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, pealandco said:


That bad, huh? I did buy your book so I’ll make sure to read the section on stance. 🙂
 

Grip strength is one area that I’ve put some effort into recently. Curious what you’re seeing? Wrist separation or just overall weak grip? I’ve been looking to see if the trigger guard lifts off my hand in video, and I thought that was something that I had fixed. 

Once you push your arms out so that your elbows don't bend during recoil then the grip issued will be exposed. Once again, slow motion video is good for seeing what is really happening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, zzt said:

Having and using both powders for Open, I can tell you that the AA&/SWMP powder is the best, IMO.  The extra push you felt with the lighter charge of 3N38 was because it didn't make as much gas as the AA7 load and the comp baffles were not pushed on as hard.  If you want even flatter, use 115 JHPs.

 

I cannot fit enough 3N38 in a 9mm case to make major with a 115 and still seat the bullet to 1.161", so I'm using that for minor.  10.2 gr SWMP/AA7 under a 115 JHP for 169 PF works in both Open guns.  10.4 is a tad flatter and a little harsher.  10.4 is compressed slightly while 10.2 is not.  I use 6.8 gr 3N38 under a 124 JHP or 7.2 under a 115 JHP for my (minor) SCSA loads in my 1911 Open gun.

 

Your AA7 load shoots considerably flatter than the 3N38 load.  I question your PF estimates.  8.4 3N38 under a 124 does not make major in my guns.

 

To see if you are making too much gas, hold the muzzle an inch away from a white no shoot and fire.  If you get minimal splatter about the size of a quarter, you do not have too much gas.

 

Tried the paper test this afternoon and for what it is worth, 8.4gr (new load) had quarter sized splatter and the 8.8gr load (load in the videos from the original post) had splatter 2-3x the size. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

Once you push your arms out so that your elbows don't bend during recoil then the grip issued will be exposed. Once again, slow motion video is good for seeing what is really happening.

 

Makes sense. I did notice in one of my videos my elbows were more straight out and the gun looked like it was shooting very flat. The particular day I tested the load that I complained about my elbows are definitely bent and more inwards. Something that I will need to consciously work on during practice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)
15 hours ago, pealandco said:

 

Tried the paper test this afternoon and for what it is worth, 8.4gr (new load) had quarter sized splatter and the 8.8gr load (load in the videos from the original post) had splatter 2-3x the size. 

 

The 8.4 is your load if you stick with 3N38.  All shots are over 170 PF, so you are good at the chrono station.

 

I'll second what Cha-lee says about elbows.  Sometimes near the end of a match my elbows hurt so much I bend them.  Gun control goes out the window.  It is possible to fully extend your arms, but only semi-lock your elbows.  It is hard to maintain, but does take some strain off if you do it right.  I'll also note that now that the gyms are open, my wrist and arm strength are improving.  That helps a lot, because there is less impact on your joints.

 

Added later:  I still prefer the slower powder, especially if I'm using 124s.

 

Do the same experiment with AA7.  If you are still not as flat as you want, your only alternative is poppels.  Two 3/16" or three 5?32" holes will rob gas from the comp to the tune of between 4 and 6 PF.  You can add more powder to make up for that and the gun will shoot flatter and probably close to the same softness.

Edited by zzt
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

This is a CZ Shadow 2 I have built.

 

I have no extreme grip strength.

 

9mm Major roughly 7.95 grain 3n38 166pf 124grain bullet.

No popple holes.

 

Mine is not perfect, but I contribute alot of the gun movement to technique or lack of. For me going up in pf above 168pf has only negative effects. 

 

Looking at this same footage frame by frame clearly shows the gun staying flat, even dipping a tiny bit as the comp works and the hammer is cocked. The muzzle flip comes from the slide bottoming out on the frame.

 

With the previous comp I used I even went up to 24lbs hammer spring, ended up selecting 20lbs because at least earlier it felt like a good compromise when looking at farther distance target hits/splits/dot movement and feeling (rotation) in hand. I will revisit the hammer spring weight soon with this new comp.

 

 

Frame by frame:
 

 

Edited by Ludde
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...