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CO vs EDC?


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Anyone running a red dot for competition but still use irons for your carry pistol? I'm using a Holosun 407 for USPSA carry optics on my Shadow 2. And I purchased a Swampfox Sentinel for my Springfield Hellcat. I thought I had the Swampfox zeroed but when I got home from the range the dot is not where I thought it should be - high and right. Thought I was co-witnessed and dialed in, but apparently not. I'm beginning to wonder if the dot should be used for games and the irons for short range self defense.

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That's my setup. Figured the dot on the EDC would likely not help much in a short range defensive situation. Per a chat with the FBI neighbor, most likely scenario to be in is a point and shoot vs having time to aim. Also let me put more dots on the competition setups.

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1 hour ago, Stafford said:

Thought I was co-witnessed and dialed in, but apparently not.

 

You can co-witness your dot with Irons if you have the correct Irons.  However, this is not required by any means.  They are two completely different aiming mechanisms, even on the same gun.  For this to be accomplished correctly your dot would have to co-witness to what ever distance your iron sights are set up for.  The other item to note here is higher end Red Dot sights such as a Trijicon RMR have little to now parallax.  Meaning the dot does not have to be in the center of the glass to hit what you are aiming at.  This means the dot would not necessarily be co-witnessing with the irons and you could still make acceptable shots on target.  For this reason alone I do not care if my Red Dot co-witnesses with my irons on my EDC guns.

 

If you are shooting a red dot correctly you are 100% target focused.  It would never matter if the dot is co-witnessed with the iron sights.  If I am trying to use the Iron sights the last thing I want is the dot between me and the iron sights.  This clutters up the sight picture when using the iron sights on a gun that has both.  At least that is my observations.  

 

You also have to be careful assuming a dot is off just because your eyes make you believe that point of aim and point of impact are off by looking at where the dot is in relation to the glass and/or gun.  Only shots down range will tell you the real story. I have ran into an issue when cleaning my gun, once reassembly was completed I was convinced the dot was way off.  Once on the range it was dead on.  Lesson learned.

 

I am not sure if I trust Swamp Fox products for carry or duty use as of yet.  I do have one, and while I am impressed in the quality for the price point, I am not willing to make this an EDC dot.  Time will tell.

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Recently had my Shadow 2 milled for the Holosun so I had to zero again. Put the dot on the x at 5 yards and I was a little low and right. Quick adjustment and dead on. Kept moving the target back, made minor adjustments and was good at 15 yards. Easy. I'll shoot again with my son and let him get a feel if he thinks it's zeroed accurately. 

 

The Swampfox + Hellcat was a different story. The little tool was hard to use. Acceptable for windage but nearly impossible for elevation. Kept worrying that I was going to strip the heads. Borrowed a screwdriver from the RO and got it where I wanted at 10 yards and shot it out to 12 yards. I was pretty sure the dot was just above the front sight as I dialed it in. Got home, and practiced from low ready to various points. The dot was impossible to find above the front sight??? It was now high right. So, I'm not sure what happened? Perhaps I turned the pistol at an angle on the bench to make the dot float above the front sight or adjusted my grip? In any event, after I had it where I wanted I shot freehand and made hits. So, I'm not sure where I went wrong. Zeroing is a tedious process and not nearly as fun as just shooting. But, it's pretty frustrating to think that I wasted time and ammo and I'm still not zeroed.

 

Dealing with the tool was such a frustrating process that my initial thoughts are eBay it and be rid of it. 

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Two different philosophies here in my opinion. CO for me is a competition and while the ability to see and shoot quickly is transferable, carrying for protection and defense is a different thing. I don't need to be 25 yard accurate for personal carry and the ability to hit a 7 yard (or less) target center mass really doesn't take a lot of aiming or the precision of a dot.

 

Personally, while I like the dot, to conceal easily I don't have a dot on the carry gun.

 

But hey, I have a friend whose carry is a 300 black out "pistol" in a backpack. It has a dot on it and a can.

 

I guess it's whatever an individual feels the biggest threat may be.

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@Stafford

 

Yes, I switched all my carry pistols to optics about 9 months after starting to compete in CO in January of 2020.  Optics are superior to irons sights in every respect and for every application.  Close in, far away, slow shooting, fast shooting, one target, multiple targets, competition or self defense.  I also have zero trouble concealing a mid-sized (P-07) pistol with an RMR either IWB or OWB with the same clothes that I wore before that pistol had an optic on it.  It just doesn't matter for concealment.

 

Pistols do not have a rifle's stopping power.  Period.  Full stop.  That means that shooting "center of mass" is not enough to quickly shut down a threat.  There are very specific areas in the chest that need to be targeted and they are smaller than any A or down 0 zone we ever use in competition.  In addition, optical sights allow you to never, ever take your focus away from what your threats are doing.  If anyone doesn't realize the importance of that little fact, well there's not much I can do to help.

 

Reading between the lines I think your problems with the Hellcat and Swampfox optic are mostly due to a hobby-grade chinese cheapo that has no place on a fighting weapon.  I also suspect that you may not understand that the irons and the optic are not slaved to one another when sighting in.  As someome else said they are two completely different and independent sighting systems and they are to be zeroed without reference to one another.  Lastly maybe your index isn't as good as it should be with the Hellcat.  Personally I'm not a fan of sub compact pistols because of their limited capacity and tiny grips that make shooting more difficult than it needs to be.

 

I only buy vetted, high quality optics for serious use.  That means, for me anyway, Trijicon.  SROs for competition and RMRs for serious use.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Stafford said:

I'm using a Holosun 407 for USPSA carry optics on my Shadow 2. fense.

 

I have a 507 (same thing as the 407 with minor cosmetic changes) that I bought as a backup.  I went to a two-day class with Mason Lane last weekend and decided to try the Holosun on day 1.  Hated it.  All the reticles drew my eye to them in a way that none of my Trijicons (with their simple, large dots) would do.  The 32 MOA circle with the 2 MOA dot was the absolute worst in that regard.  Changed it for my usual SRO on Saturday night and shot a hell of a lot better and faster on Sunday particularly on the practice stages.

 

I use a laser boresighter when mounting a dot.  I align the dot laterally and with the laser dot and vertically I place the laser on the top half of the optics dot on a wall 10 yards away and I'm dead nuts on at 20 yards.  I mean dead nuts on.  It takes a little bit of practice but now I use zero ammo to sight in a pistol mounted RDS.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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Swampfox is back in the box and the cover plate is back on the Hellcat. I may try another dot on it at some point, but I'm much happier with that dot off of the pistol.

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I am beginning to tinker with carry-ops, but I don't foresee me putting a dot on my carry guy as long as I can see the sights. I have considered it but have seen issues with dots, not always pertaining with durability that cause me to decide against it. Then add in the durability aspect of taking probably the most reliable part of a pistol and turning it into a questionably reliable system and I am not convinced they are for me. Other people may have different needs and dots may be great for them, but I am not convinced they are always the correct answer.

 

Good luck

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

Pistols do not have a rifle's stopping power.  Period.  Full stop.  That means that shooting "center of mass" is not enough to quickly shut down a threat.  There are very specific areas in the chest that need to be targeted and they are smaller than any A or down 0 zone we ever use in competition. 


Sarge

 

Pretty strong opinion. Are you going to turn this into a 45 vs 9mm stopping power type of discussion?
 

Each of us have our own reasons about why they conceal carry and what the proper tool is for that job. 
 

BTW I officially carried for a US Gov agency for 15 years and never once had to even consider drawing a weapon to stop a threat, thank God.  Sure did a whole bunch of training and requals though and enjoyed all the info.

 

Now I’m a Super Senior in USPSA and enjoying using a dot with old eyes. Makes me feel young again. 😉

Edited by HesedTech
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16 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I use a laser boresighter when mounting a dot.  I align the dot laterally and with the laser dot and vertically I place the laser on the top half of the optics dot on a wall 10 yards away and I'm dead nuts on at 20 yards.  I mean dead nuts on.  It takes a little bit of practice but now I use zero ammo to sight in a pistol mounted RDS.


Hey Sarge,

what laser bore sighted are you using?

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17 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

I use a laser boresighter when mounting a dot.  I align the dot laterally and with the laser dot and vertically I place the laser on the top half of the optics dot on a wall 10 yards away and I'm dead nuts on at 20 yards.  I mean dead nuts on.  It takes a little bit of practice but now I use zero ammo to sight in a pistol mounted RDS.

 

Likewise.  Found the laser boresighter to be a godsend.

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21 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

I use a laser boresighter when mounting a dot.  I align the dot laterally and with the laser dot and vertically I place the laser on the top half of the optics dot on a wall 10 yards away and I'm dead nuts on at 20 yards.  I mean dead nuts on.  It takes a little bit of practice but now I use zero ammo to sight in a pistol mounted RDS.

I started doing this a while ago too.  Mostly so I could just get close before dialing it in with ammo at the range.  After doing it a few times I found it was so close that I don't even bother confirming any longer, same as you.

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, HesedTech said:


Sarge

 

Pretty strong opinion. Are you going to turn this into a 45 vs 9mm stopping power type of discussion?

 

It makes no difference to me if anyone agrees or not, nor am I interested in convincing anyone.

 

However, my stance on this isn't something I came up with by myself.  I came to think that way after conversations with people who have shot other people.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

My experience, and that of most who I know, doesn't track with his.

 

Sarge
 

Again we all have our opinions on the subject and your strong position does indicate you expect people to agree with you or at least be swayed by you.

 

I too, and I'm sure many others on the forum, have friends and acquaintances whom have shot people. We also, because of our association with the shooting world, play with many who carry and defend people with firearms. With all that behind me I have to again write this, the tool depends on the task.

 

Personally I have several dots ranging from pistols to rifles, SROs (using in USPSA), Holosun (507 and 510), Alpha 3 (best value BTW), Vortex Venom and Viper, and a Sig. They all are tough and only had one failure, the Venom whose frame cracked after around 5000 rounds. I only point this out to indicate I am far from anti-dot in any way. In fact I think it's God's gift for old eyes.

 

So what do I carry? A Sig P938, because of its size and ability to comfortably and unobtrusively conceal. I frankly don't expect a full drawn out gun battle.

 

That's my opinion and experience. Yours is different and I'm sure has good reasoning behind it.

 

BTW, poo pooing Vogel's opinion is sacrilegious. ☹️ Just saying.

 

For the OP, decide why you want to carry, what you expect to encounter and then equip yourself accordingly. Dots are good.

 

Edited by HesedTech
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2 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

https://image.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/1/104685m2_ts.jpg

Thanks, I like those flange pieces. They look more durable than the rubber washers on my Site-Lite. 
who makes the one you’re using?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, HesedTech said:

 your strong position does indicate you expect people to agree with you or at least be swayed by you.

 

Seriously?  GMAFB

 

BTW, I don't agree with Vogel's grip technique either.  It doesn't work unless you have monster hands and insane grip strength.  My ortho surgeon friend's professional opinion is that Vogel's grip is a recipe for tendonitis for most people.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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35 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Thanks, I like those flange pieces. They look more durable than the rubber washers on my Site-Lite. 
who makes the one you’re using?

 

I think it was from Bushnell.  They are expanding arbors that screw into the end of the boresighter's stem.  You then spin the boresighter and arbor expands to lock into the bore.  The taper on the main portion of the unit snugs up to the muzzle so the beam is concentric enough with the bore to sight in an RDS without ever needing to fire a shot.

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