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Open vs CO


usmc1974

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13 hours ago, BritinUSA said:

once you shoot open you realize all other divisions are just cheaper and more reliable

 

Nonsense.  I built my 9mm Open gun from scratch and have had zero failures of any kind in 7000+ rounds.  Same with the backup I built, but that only has about 1000 rounds through it.

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39 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Nonsense.  I built my 9mm Open gun from scratch and have had zero failures of any kind in 7000+ rounds.  Same with the backup I built, but that only has about 1000 rounds through it.

 

I don't know if I'd say it's nonsense based on one guy with 8k rounds split between two guns. It would just take a moment to search these forums for all the mag tuning threads and load data threads to see there can be more to running open then just picking up a gun and shooting it.

 

CO can be super easy. Pick up a 320, and some factory ammo and the gun is just going to run and run and run with out any thinking about it at all. 

 

There is no doubt that CO is simpler and less expensive then Open. 

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4 hours ago, AverageJoeShooting said:

pcc is the definition of an imposter division. a rifle at a pistol match has no place. 75 yard shots with a pistol take skill and practice. 75 yard shots with a 16 in rifle take nothing and you can clean texas stars or plate racks in no time. 

 

Figured that would get some good responses going

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5 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I don't know if I'd say it's nonsense based on one guy with 8k rounds split between two guns. It would just take a moment to search these forums for all the mag tuning threads and load data threads to see there can be more to running open then just picking up a gun and shooting it.

 

I routinely shoot with six other Open shooters who have shot the same gun for years.  I've never seen a malfunction, and they don't complain of them.

 

As far as tuning feed lips goes, buy good mags and don't worry about it.  My MBX mags have never been tuned.

 

CO with no problems, no.  The 320 on my squad at the last shoot had issues on two stages.  Don't know whether it was shooter, gun, ammo or mag related, but he blew both stages.

 

So the bottom line is shoot a good gun, use good mags and make good ammo.  If you do you'll not have any issues.

 

BTW, that's 8000 on the two new guns.  20,000+ rounds through the two old guns.

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12 hours ago, zzt said:

 

I routinely shoot with six other Open shooters who have shot the same gun for years.  I've never seen a malfunction, and they don't complain of them.

 

As far as tuning feed lips goes, buy good mags and don't worry about it.  My MBX mags have never been tuned.

 

CO with no problems, no.  The 320 on my squad at the last shoot had issues on two stages.  Don't know whether it was shooter, gun, ammo or mag related, but he blew both stages.

 

So the bottom line is shoot a good gun, use good mags and make good ammo.  If you do you'll not have any issues.

 

BTW, that's 8000 on the two new guns.  20,000+ rounds through the two old guns.

i agree i have one gun that i shot about 50k on last year with no issues and another open gun ive put 7200 on it this year with no issues

 

use good mags and good ammo and you shouldn't have any issues. the only difference is that you have to actually pay attention when loading. it requires the bares of all minimum of efforts so thats why everyone thinks CO is easier, because they just dont want to put the effort in

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I worked a major a few weeks ago and was surprised by the lack of 2011 failures that I saw on my stage. I believe there were 2 the entire match.  The guns generally considered reliable, production and co type da/sa and plastic, were the least reliable I saw, and the 320 was the biggest offender by a margin. 

 

Now that was just what I observed on one stage, I have no idea how these guns did on the rest of the match. And I also have no idea of the mods done to the guns. But just assuming that plastic/da/sa works and 2011 doesn't, is probably a bad idea

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If you do your part and keep them maintained they run just like any other reliable platform. I’ve never had issues with 9mm open guns that weren’t caused by me, ammo, parts breaking, or poor maintenance. This would be the same for any gun. 

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3 hours ago, RJH said:

The guns generally considered reliable, production and co type da/sa and plastic, were the least reliable I saw, and the 320 was the biggest offender by a margin.

 

I'm going to guess that more people do home trigger jobs and slap on cheapo aftermarket parts on P and CO guns than open shooters do, which might explain what you've seen.

 

Personally, I have two similarly setup CZ polymer-framed CO guns (meaning they're stock except for recoil springs).  One is DA/SA the other is striker fired.  The striker fired one has been significantly more dependable.

 

The 320...............well........it probably shouldn't be in the holsters of our military or police forces.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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On 7/2/2021 at 5:12 PM, zzt said:

 

I routinely shoot with six other Open shooters who have shot the same gun for years.  I've never seen a malfunction, and they don't complain of them.

 

As far as tuning feed lips goes, buy good mags and don't worry about it.  My MBX mags have never been tuned.

 

CO with no problems, no.  The 320 on my squad at the last shoot had issues on two stages.  Don't know whether it was shooter, gun, ammo or mag related, but he blew both stages.

 

So the bottom line is shoot a good gun, use good mags and make good ammo.  If you do you'll not have any issues.

 

BTW, that's 8000 on the two new guns.  20,000+ rounds through the two old guns.

 

Noted, I'll mark you down as one of the people who thinks open is more reliable than production and keeps a back up just in case. lol.

 

I think what we see at matches can be skewed. There is a decent amount of shooters who's guns just don't work because they mess with s#!t to much and don't know what they're doing. CO is currently the new hotness, and I'd be willing to bet is the home of more of those shooters than any other division. 

 

Open guns can certainly run vary well. But a production gun that isn't overly "tuned" is more likely to work all the time. I shot CO with a 320 last year. I only shot about 15k through it and it just ran and ran. I didn't really clean it even when the mags were full of sand I just shook the sand out and filled them back up.

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You must live on a different planet than me.  I see the exact opposite.  Everyone who wants to be competitive has tweaked/tuned their gun(s) and there are no issues.  9 times out of 10 it is a casual production shooter shooting a plastic gun that has problems.

 

In the last three seasons I've seen exactly one problem with an Open gun.  And that was the shooter's fault, not the gun.  He uses a slide mounted optic.  He removed it to clean the gun and forgot to put Loctite on the threads when he reattached it.  It flew off on the second stage.

 

Yes, I do have a backup Open gun.  I built it because the main gun had to go back for a warranty frame replacement.  I didn't want to shoot a 1911 in Open, so I bit the bullet.  I keep all my guns cleaned, lubed and properly set up.  That's why I have no problems.  Casual shooters may not, and that's why they do.

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22 minutes ago, zzt said:

You must live on a different planet than me.  I see the exact opposite.  Everyone who wants to be competitive has tweaked/tuned their gun(s) and there are no issues.  9 times out of 10 it is a casual production shooter shooting a plastic gun that has problems.

 

In the last three seasons I've seen exactly one problem with an Open gun.  And that was the shooter's fault, not the gun.  He uses a slide mounted optic.  He removed it to clean the gun and forgot to put Loctite on the threads when he reattached it.  It flew off on the second stage.

 

Yes, I do have a backup Open gun.  I built it because the main gun had to go back for a warranty frame replacement.  I didn't want to shoot a 1911 in Open, so I bit the bullet.  I keep all my guns cleaned, lubed and properly set up.  That's why I have no problems.  Casual shooters may not, and that's why they do.

 

 

I'm pretty serious too, I clean my CO gun every few months or so. 

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2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

 

I'm pretty serious too, I clean my CO gun every few months or so. 

 

LOL.  I clean mine after every match.  I guess that makes me super serious.

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28 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

LOL.  I clean mine after every match.  I guess that makes me super serious.

Haha. Me too. I enjoy the cleaning and it’s easy as there isn’t much build up when done often. 

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17 hours ago, zzt said:

 

LOL.  I clean mine after every match.  I guess that makes me super serious.

 

No it just makes my point. 

 

You said it was nonsense that CO is less expensive and more reliable then Open. One open gun can easily cost more then both of my CO guns. Plus you have to reload to make 9 major you can't just go to the store and buy it. Plus you clean and lube your guns after every match. 

 

I can shoot what ever ammo I want, I can go months with out cleaning so I'd say the idea that Open isn't more expensive and less reliable in the nonsense here. 

Edited by Racinready300ex
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Hello, I think both platforms can be very reliable if you use good ammo and keep things clean. My CO pistols have been running 100% and so have my Open pistols. Keep your magazines clean and use good ammo and both will run very well. As for ammo, most people I know reload their own so ammo cost is almost the same. Buying ammo right now is scary expensive for both. So, is one better than the other? Not really, it just comes down to what you like to shoot and major or minor power factor. Thanks, Eric

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23 hours ago, zzt said:

 

LOL.  I clean mine after every match.  I guess that makes me super serious.

Just curious: have you ever tried not cleaning your gun between a few matches or practice sessions?  I ask because, like you, I've been cleaning my gun after every match ever since I got it.  However, I'm running an experiment right now to see how long it can go between cleanings before problems start to crop up.  I didn't clean it after a two day class, as well as a range practice session afterward, so right now it's sitting at about 1k rounds since the last cleaning.

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53 minutes ago, UpYoursPal said:

Just curious: have you ever tried not cleaning your gun between a few matches or practice sessions?  I ask because, like you, I've been cleaning my gun after every match ever since I got it.  However, I'm running an experiment right now to see how long it can go between cleanings before problems start to crop up.  I didn't clean it after a two day class, as well as a range practice session afterward, so right now it's sitting at about 1k rounds since the last cleaning.

I have ran open guns well over 1,500 rounds with no cleaning. Just add oil and go. They always ran if mags were clean and ammo was correct. Before ammo was scarce a normal practice session was 750-800 rounds. Depending on powder they can get pretty nasty. 

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2 hours ago, UpYoursPal said:

Just curious: have you ever tried not cleaning your gun between a few matches or practice sessions?  I ask because, like you, I've been cleaning my gun after every match ever since I got it.  However, I'm running an experiment right now to see how long it can go between cleanings before problems start to crop up.  I didn't clean it after a two day class, as well as a range practice session afterward, so right now it's sitting at about 1k rounds since the last cleaning.

 

Yes.  When I built the backup gun recently I took it out for testing and sighting in.  That was about 75 rounds.  Then I shot it for the next three matches to see if anything needed tweaking.  Ran 100%.  Then I shot some practice, maybe another 100.  When I took it apart it was still lubed and clean enough to keep going.  I'm going to shoot the match this Sun with it, but I'll clean it first.

 

I did the same with my main gun when I built it two years ago.  So I know both will run dirty.  I clean them before every match just in case.  It takes five minutes, so better safe than sorry.  I case gauge all my match ammo also.

 

Clean guns run smoother and wear less, so that's another reason to keep them clean.

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12 hours ago, zzt said:

 

Yes.  When I built the backup gun recently I took it out for testing and sighting in.  That was about 75 rounds.  Then I shot it for the next three matches to see if anything needed tweaking.  Ran 100%.  Then I shot some practice, maybe another 100.  When I took it apart it was still lubed and clean enough to keep going.  I'm going to shoot the match this Sun with it, but I'll clean it first.

 

I did the same with my main gun when I built it two years ago.  So I know both will run dirty.  I clean them before every match just in case.  It takes five minutes, so better safe than sorry.  I case gauge all my match ammo also.

 

Clean guns run smoother and wear less, so that's another reason to keep them clean.

Those are all good points.  I also have to eat my words a little; I went to the range for a practice session yesterday after posting that, and started to have FTE issues when shooting SHO/WHO.  No problems with freestyle shooting, but I wager that the accumulated crud probably slowed the slide down a bit.

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I don’t get the seeing how long one can run their firearm without cleaning fascination.  Does running one dirty for tens of thousands of rounds make it a better gun?  I would rather clean after each training session (normally 200-600 round for me) and prior to matches.  This goes for my open guns as well as CO guns.  Not just to get the crud out, but to also check for worn parts.  Waiting to see how long till I get a failure from not maintaining the firearm does not make sense, especially if that failure happens in a stage.  Do they wait to change their oil until their engine seizes?

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Nonsense! I have two Staccato / STI guns and they both have broken slides and not repaired by the Staccato / STI. They are too busy beeing heroes.

 

CO allows you to use whatever quality proven firearm.

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On 7/3/2021 at 9:24 AM, SGT_Schultz said:

The 320...............well........it probably shouldn't be in the holsters of our military or police forces.

 

Weird, I have yet to see one 320 malfunction in competition.  I had issues once but it was related to crappy ammo and not the gun.  Not to say that the safety issue with the original P320s was not a concern, but has been addressed.  I have seen plenty of malfunctions with 2011s and other plastic guns.  When you watch Glocks malfunctions you start to understand maybe its more about the person tinkering with the gun than an issue with the Gun.  I surmise this goes for 2011s as well as plastic guns. 

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20 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Weird, I have yet to see one 320 malfunction in competition.  I had issues once but it was related to crappy ammo and not the gun.  Not to say that the safety issue with the original P320s was not a concern, but has been addressed.  I have seen plenty of malfunctions with 2011s and other plastic guns.  When you watch Glocks malfunctions you start to understand maybe its more about the person tinkering with the gun than an issue with the Gun.  I surmise this goes for 2011s as well as plastic guns. 

 

One thing I've seen with 320's that I blame on the internet saying lighter recoil springs are better. I think the legions come with a 12 and 14. I'd use one of those. I know guys trying to run shorter 1911 springs at 10-11 lbs and every now and then it'll hiccup. 

 

I'd bet guys like Max and Mason rocking the 320 aren't chasing the lightest recoil spring. At the same time I bet there are a ton of threads on that topic right here.

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2 hours ago, Rvajma said:

I don’t get the seeing how long one can run their firearm without cleaning fascination.  Does running one dirty for tens of thousands of rounds make it a better gun?  I would rather clean after each training session (normally 200-600 round for me) and prior to matches.  This goes for my open guns as well as CO guns.  Not just to get the crud out, but to also check for worn parts.  Waiting to see how long till I get a failure from not maintaining the firearm does not make sense, especially if that failure happens in a stage.  Do they wait to change their oil until their engine seizes?

 

For me it matters, for starters if I go shoot a 3 day match I don't want to be cleaning between days. So I expect the gun to at least be capable of running reliably past about double the round count of something like Nat's just to be safe. If it can't I don't want the gun. I know guys who go lube there guns 5 stages into majors. Not me, a gun that finicky would be sold long ago.

 

The other thing for me is I go to the range twice a week to practice, and matches or classes on the weekends. Everything takes time, I'm dry firing twice a day plus reloading my ammo. If I added cleaning my gun 3 times a week would just take time away from something else. It would probably mean either less time to dry fire, sleep, or spent with family.

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I know guys trying to run shorter 1911 springs at 10-11 lbs and every now and then it'll hiccup.

 

I have commented on this in a couple of threads as well.  I think there is a reason Sig sends recoil springs that are long and have so many coils.  I am currently running the Springer Precision recoil springs in the 12 and 14 pound versions depending on the load.  These springs also have many more coils than the 1911 springs one could use in the 320s.  I found when running the 11 pound spring that you needed to keep the gun ultra clean and change springs often.  For this reason I ditched them and went with the longer springs at the higher spring weights.  This change coincided with using ammo with a higher PF.   

 

I have moved away from powder puff loads and light recoil springs because I feel the gun runs way better and is way more accurate using rounds with a higher PF.  It then comes back to having the proper grip and not being lazy finding ways to make the gun softer to control recoil.

 

I would imagine you quote on Max and Mason is probably spot on.  I would actually like to know what those guys are running in regards to PF and reoil springs.

 

Edited by Boomstick303
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