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929 Cylinder Size


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8 hours ago, tomjerry1 said:

Just got back from the range, good and bad. Accuracy with the .358 bullets has increased, but the bullets continue to walk out of the cases, probably about 20 to 25 thousands on the seventh and eighth rounds. I crimped these to .380 but need more, how much are you folks crimping coated bullets? With 3.6gr of Vectan 9.5, I'm attaining 125 to 128 PF, need to bump a grain. I do believe I am going to try some 160 gr bullets, maybe more bullet to grip the case?

Brass has memory and will spring back a little, lead does not. It is possible that too much crimp can size the bullets smaller and actually loosen them in the case.

 

Bullets are retained by neck tension. A taper crimp serves to iron out the bell at the case mouth so it will feed. Roll crimps are different and do actually increase the bullet retention.

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Just back from the range. The new load, 148 Bang and Clang bullet, 3.7gr Vectan 9.5 Fed SPP, 1.2 OAL, produces and avg velocity of 917 fps, or HF of 136.2. I can live with that, but the bullets are still walking out, although not as much. I have checked the crimp, .374/.375, it's on the verge of cutting through the coating and exposing the lead. Has anyone tried using a grooved bullet and roll crimp?

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43 minutes ago, tomjerry1 said:

Just back from the range. The new load, 148 Bang and Clang bullet, 3.7gr Vectan 9.5 Fed SPP, 1.2 OAL, produces and avg velocity of 917 fps, or HF of 136.2. I can live with that, but the bullets are still walking out, although not as much. I have checked the crimp, .374/.375, it's on the verge of cutting through the coating and exposing the lead. Has anyone tried using a grooved bullet and roll crimp?

 

Are you using a Lee U die? Otherwise you're just chasing your tail.

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3 hours ago, tomjerry1 said:

Has anyone tried using a grooved bullet and roll crimp?

Get your self a LEE 38 short Colt roll crimp die and use it in you last station. I have been using one for years, and it works with 9mm and short colt both. When I switch from reloading 9mm to 38 short colt the only two things I change is the sizing/decapper and the shell plate. EVERYTHING else stay the same,  They work great in my 929 and my 627. And for the record the nines that I load like this with a roll crimp work just fine in my sig 320 and my SS along with my PCC.

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5 hours ago, tomjerry1 said:

Just back from the range. The new load, 148 Bang and Clang bullet, 3.7gr Vectan 9.5 Fed SPP, 1.2 OAL, produces and avg velocity of 917 fps, or HF of 136.2. I can live with that, but the bullets are still walking out, although not as much. I have checked the crimp, .374/.375, it's on the verge of cutting through the coating and exposing the lead. Has anyone tried using a grooved bullet and roll crimp?

Yes a roll crimp WITH a crimping groove is the best solution for bullets backing out.  240 bullets in a .44 definitely benefited at Major PF, BUT if fired multiple times as the last round they would back out even with a roll crimp and crimping groove.  It's getting harder to find them though as more are using, bullets which are smooth sided.  Montana Gold makes a 142 Jacketed with a pointed nose that has a cannelure groove, which would also be a good solution.

 

As another aside experiment with different brands of cases, there is definitely a difference in them.  Back in the day one could not use WW cases in 38 supers as the bullets would continually be pushed into the cases too deep.  Yet RP never had an issue.  Or it could've been the exact opposite, it was 30 years ago!

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https://bayoubullets.net/38-357-124-gr-rn/

 

With 160's , win brass, U-die and just crimping enough to bring the brass back to the bullet I almost do not have any issues with bullets walking - never had a known issue while shooting but have seen them get longer if say I shot 6 or 7 and left 1 in the clip. .

 

Am switching to the 125's - thought being that the critical contact area between brass and bullet will not change (tapered brass) and the inertia of the bullet in the brass under recoil (m*v) will be reduced by about 22%. Time will tell. Could be that the change to the recoil impulse using lighter bullets at the same power factor will work against me. 

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I use Federal brass with Blue Bullets 147, loaded on a Dillon 750 with a Lee U die. No bullet creep.

 

9mm: 147gr Blue RN: Clays 3.00gr: Fed Case: OAL 1.20: S&W 929


Notes: S&W 929
Shots: 4


Average: 882 ft/s
SD: 10 ft/s
Min: 871 ft/s
Max: 897 ft/s
Spread: 26 ft/s


Power Factor Average: 130
Power Factor Low: 128
Power Factor High: 132


Barometric Pressure: 29 in Hg
Temperature: 67 F


Weight: 147.0 gr.
Powder/Wt: Clays/3.00gr
Bullet/Wt: Blue 147gr RN
Primer: Fed SPP
Case: Fed
OAL: 1.20
Gun: S&W 929 / 5" barrel

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Okay, just back from the range. I tested Blue Bullets and Bang and Clang bullets. Both are .358 Dia, 147/148 gr. and finally got a LEE factory crimp die. The best performance cam from Blue Bullets, very accurate, and walked out .016". Bang and Clang are accurate also, but not as tight, they walked .041". I'm going ti tighten up the crimp until bullets start to tumble, but think I'm going to finally solve the creep?

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32 minutes ago, tomjerry1 said:

I'm going ti tighten up the crimp until bullets start to tumble,

 

I would be looking for barrel leading and for the gun to start shooting curve balls out past 20 yards. 

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3 hours ago, tomjerry1 said:

Okay, just back from the range. I tested Blue Bullets and Bang and Clang bullets. Both are .358 Dia, 147/148 gr. and finally got a LEE factory crimp die. The best performance cam from Blue Bullets, very accurate, and walked out .016". Bang and Clang are accurate also, but not as tight, they walked .041". I'm going ti tighten up the crimp until bullets start to tumble, but think I'm going to finally solve the creep?

Ditch the factory crimp die

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I will be monitoring the process and any accuracy changes, and this factory crimp die has done more for the bullet creep with my setup. I will stick with it for now, at least until it shows it's not the fix.

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I will go out on a limb here:

I would be willing to give you $100.00 for that 929. Yes you read that right, $100.00!

You could put that money toward a Ruger and live happily ever-after!!!

 

Totally kidding!

Once you get that gun sorted out you will be living large and putting on a show!

 

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I had some experimentation with mine too. Mostly to find what it liked. (Federal primers, .358 bullets, etc) When I did the right tests though it "fell into place" and I had tons of ammo through it and about 3 years later I am very glad I bought it. Great gun, great for competition. 

Keep on keeping on.

And, if it doesn't sort out, there is always that hundred buck waiting for you!

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Here's what I run in mine:

 

9mm: 147gr Blue .357 RN: Clays 3.00gr: Fed Case: OAL 1.20

 

Notes: S&W 929


Shots: 4
Average: 882 ft/s
SD: 10 ft/s
Min: 871 ft/s
Max: 897 ft/s
Spread: 26 ft/s


Power Factor Average: 130
Power Factor Low: 128
Power Factor High: 132


Barometric Pressure: 29 in Hg
Temperature: 67 F


Weight: 148.0 gr.
Powder/Wt: Clays/3.00gr
Bullet/Wt: Blue Bullet 147gr RN .357
Primer: Fed SPP
Case: Fed
OAL: 1.20

Moon clip: TK .035
Gun: S&W 929 / 5" barrel

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21 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Heavy bullets, very fast powder, 128 pf, you are a braver man than I. 

 

In my .38 short colt (which is virtually a rimmed 9mm) I'm running a 160gr bayou bullet, with the same 3gr of clays.

 

I'm shooting it in my 627.

 

NEVER TAKE LOAD INFORMATION FROM ANONYMOUS INTERNET SOURCES. ALWAYS FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURE'S PUBLISHED LOAD DATA

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5 minutes ago, ysrracer said:

 

In my .38 short colt (which is virtually a rimmed 9mm) I'm running a 160gr bayou bullet, with the same 3gr of clays.

 

I'm shooting it in my 627.

 

NEVER TAKE LOAD INFORMATION FROM ANONYMOUS INTERNET SOURCES. ALWAYS FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURE'S PUBLISHED LOAD DATA

And I respect your right to load as you see fit, I just would not do it. For 40's or 45's loaded down to very modest power factors I use clays and clay dot, just don't have the guts to use a powder that fast with heavy 9's. 

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49 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

And I respect your right to load as you see fit, I just would not do it. For 40's or 45's loaded down to very modest power factors I use clays and clay dot, just don't have the guts to use a powder that fast with heavy 9's. 

 

Agreed, you should never take anyone's load data

 

 ALWAYS USE PUBLISHED MANUFACTURE'S DATA

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38 short colt has about 10% more capacity and especially in a 357 magnum there are no issues with bullets up to 160 grains.

I've used clays/claydot in my 9mm glocks/1911's and it did seem to reach a point right at the 130 pf where it quit increasing velocity.  A sure sign that it's reached it's potential limit, but that was about 3.0 grains at an oal of 1.13.  In a Revolver you can load out further and case capacity is where I thought my loads were peaking out.

Never saw any pressure signs, just ran out of case at the shorter lengths needed.

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26 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

38 short colt has about 10% more capacity and especially in a 357 magnum there are no issues with bullets up to 160 grains.

I've used clays/claydot in my 9mm glocks/1911's and it did seem to reach a point right at the 130 pf where it quit increasing velocity.  A sure sign that it's reached it's potential limit, but that was about 3.0 grains at an oal of 1.13.  In a Revolver you can load out further and case capacity is where I thought my loads were peaking out.

Never saw any pressure signs, just ran out of case at the shorter lengths needed.

 

Yes, my loads are for use in my revolver.

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