Disappointed with my first Open gun

[Jules1985]

I recently decided to switch to the open division.

Before that, I shot quite successfully with a CZ Shadow 2 in the Production Optics Division

My CZ was redesigned by a gunsmith and fitted with a weaker recoil spring, a Trijicon RMR and when shooting fast the red dot has almost never left the window.

Convinced that the Dot will be even flatter in the open division i bought my first open gun, a 2011 from a well known gunsmith in Germany.

 

The gun is in 9 major and my recent setup looks like this

17 lbs mainspring

8 lbs Wolff recoil spring 

 

Compensator is the big 2 port from the Vista Short.

My reload currently looks like this

7,4 grain of Vectan SP2 right behind a Frontier 121 gr bullet ( a coated flat Point Bullet) at 1.1417 inch.

Powerfaktor is about 164

 

maybe my idea of the open division was just wrong, but the red dot is very unstable and I'm really not that much faster than with my shadow.

 

 

am I doing something wrong or something? expectations just too high? I appreciate nice tips

 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Jules1985

[38super]

experience and expectation, get more trigger time.  See what it's doing for doubles.  Experiment with loads, never tried vectan sp2.  Comps like lots of gas volume.  One the guys at Norco said "If you don't like your comp, add more powder"  165PF is the power floor, doesn't mean your gun likes it.

[BritinUSA]

If you are using a C-More scope you may see more vibration on the dot compared to a metal slide mounted optic. 

[BritinUSA]

7 minutes ago, 38super said:

  165PF is the power floor, doesn't mean your gun likes it.

I think IPSC Power Factor is 160 for Major. 

[Jules1985]

6 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

I think IPSC Power Factor is 160 for Major. 

Right- its the Power Faktor.

 

10 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

If you are using a C-More scope you may see more vibration on the dot compared to a metal slide mounted optic. 

a brilliant idea but how could you eliminate this vibration on the system of an open weapon? I would be quite open about a new mounting solution, and Yes- using a C More atm.

 

17 minutes ago, 38super said:

„If you don't like your comp, add more powder"  165PF is the power floor, doesn't mean your gun likes it.

Vectan SP2 is quite similiar to 3N38 .
But producing a bit more gas/ little bit slower.

[38super]

You'll say Fak when the chrono sez Minor

 

Been using HS-6 & WAC, I like a little snappier powder.  Be careful tho, WAC hot loads give my gun a bad side shimmy where HS6 doesn't.  Look thru the reloading forum.

Tread lightly with Open load development, disaster factor is a trigger pull away.   

[StefVanHauwe]

4 hours ago, Jules1985 said:

I recently decided to switch to the open division.

Before that, I shot quite successfully with a CZ Shadow 2 in the Production Optics Division

My CZ was redesigned by a gunsmith and fitted with a weaker recoil spring, a Trijicon RMR and when shooting fast the red dot has almost never left the window.

Convinced that the Dot will be even flatter in the open division i bought my first open gun, a 2011 from a well known gunsmith in Germany.

 

The gun is in 9 major and my recent setup looks like this

17 lbs mainspring

8 lbs Wolff recoil spring 

 

Compensator is the big 2 port from the Vista Short.

My reload currently looks like this

7,4 grain of Vectan SP2 right behind a Frontier 121 gr bullet ( a coated flat Point Bullet) at 1.1417 inch.

Powerfaktor is about 164

 

maybe my idea of the open division was just wrong, but the red dot is very unstable and I'm really not that much faster than with my shadow.

 

 

am I doing something wrong or something? expectations just too high? I appreciate nice tips

 

 

 

Welcome to the Open club  Contrary to popular belief, an open gun doesn't automatically make you shoot faster or better! Your - positive - mental attitude combined with your level of skills, especially and most importantly in movement (shooting on the move) and transitions, do. Stage planning is also a bit different in open. Dots also always move a little bit. The way you hold the grip of the gun is also very important to make sure the RD moves up/down and quickly returns to zero. Minimum PF in open is indeed 160, but it's possible that the RD on your open gun returns faster to zero with a higher PF (for my guns thats ~172), due to better performance of the comp. Check the forum, most open shooters use 124 gr. bullets and a 9 pound recoil spring (with buffer!) A good way to test is on the range and film the gun against a background where you can see and dissect your maniipulation and the operation of the gun. You need to experiment by tweaking one thing at the time, analyse its results and then tweak another thing. Don't tweak everything at once.

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello, you are using a great powder for 9mm major. I would bump it up to 7.6 grains and try it again. The grip on the 2011 is different than your Shadow so it may take a little bit to get used to the grip. Thanks, Eric

[kujo929]

When I bought first open gun I had same feeling. Think I’m on my 7th now. Load Developement, spring change, grip, changing gun weight, & optic type with dot or window size changes all make a difference in the preference feel of the shooting as a whole. 
 

the higher you go with it in terms of skill set the more you will prefer different feel but the less any of it will actually matter to your individual performance. 
 

or at least that’s what I’ve found for myself.  

[gerritm]

Do you have a thumb rest? This will help stabilize your grip and the dot.

 

gerritm

[zzt]

Jules, do the following.

 

Make a series of ladder loads starting with your existing 7.4gr load and increasing by .1gr at each step.  I'd go up to 8gr.  Then get a white no shoot target and shoot it holding the end of the comp about an inch away.  Move over a little and repeat with the next step up.  You should see very little splatter, but at some point the splatter will increase quite a bit.  Let's just say the 7.8gr load produced dramatically more splatter that the 7.7.  You then know that your 7.7gr load produces as much gas as your comp can handle.  The 7.8 caused the excess gas to jet out the front, and that increases recoil.

 

Next you tune your gun to you.  The three things that matter are the weight of the recoil spring, mainspring, and the radius of the firing pin stop.  You play around with all three to reduce secondary recoil and get the dot to return to the same spot.  It does require some tinkering.  I have done that to my Open guns and found that for my main gun a 10 lb. recoil spring, a "normal" Open radius on the FPS (I use Cheely) and a 19 lb. mainspring work the best.  For my backup gun the same FPS, 17 lb. mainspring and 10 lb. recoil spring work best.  I'm still trying to decide it an 11 lb. spring is the better choice for the backup.

[MikeBurgess]

you are likely just noticing more than you were with the gun you are familiar with.

 

a couple of things your slide mounted dot was leaving the glass every shot, it was probably returning near where it left because of the springs and your grip and familiarity with it. Your new open frame mounted dot is also leaving the glass and depending on your grip and springs may or may not be returning to where you expect it to, you are likely seeing more movement in the dot because your Cmore is likely brighter and larger than the old RMR making movement easier to see, the dot is also likely returning slightly quicker so at the same pace you are seeing it for longer. 

 

[BritinUSA]

13 hours ago, Jules1985 said:

a brilliant idea but how could you eliminate this vibration on the system of an open weapon? I would be quite open about a new mounting solution, and Yes- using a C More atm.

Many years ago there was a slo-motion video showing how much a C-More sight flexes when mounted on an Open gun. I can’t find the video online, maybe someone has a link. 
 

Most of the local shooters around here are using Mini-red dots on their open guns

 

 

[Jules1985]

Very helpful replies so far Thank you all so much!

 

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello, another thing to note is going up in power factor may actually give you less felt recoil. It sounds weird but it is what I have found with some comps. Thanks, Eric

[BoyGlock]

My opinion is, give it some time before changing anything, as long as its reliable and accurate. Shooting minor in different platforms vs major are so different and will be magnified in reddot guns compared to iron sights. Id also say try to ignore it. It wont look very stable but you can hit the target. 

[KrisS]

In general as guys said already: wait with changing anything for a moment. 

 

As for the red dot - I would change it for something smaller with relatively big window or even Holsoun 510c (tevo sports makes nice mounts for it)

 

IMHO load is one of the key elements . I was Using VV3N38, Vectan SP2, Lovex 37.1 and currently RS24.

Vectan leaves hard black residue on the parts slowing down mechanisms after 400-500 shots, 3N38 has availability and pricing problem (at least in my Country), Lovex is cheap available and its only problem is stability and "copper like" remainings inside pistol, RS24 seems to be atm the best working powder for me (at least with CMJ 123gn 0,356 from LOS)

 

The key for dot stability IMHO apart from Red Dot flex could be the load, 164 PF is ok from the perspective of IPSC rules but Comp in my gun works best around 168-170 PF making the gun stay flat. You have to try which combination works for you as apart from the pistol and load your grip may do the difference (thats the reason to wait with the changes until you will familiarise with new platform and will see what gripping method is best for you - thumb position on the safety and on the thumb rest is IMHO crucial)

[Jules1985]

I thought i would let everyone present participate in the further developments.

I have spoken to my gunsmith about several things.

 

-first of all, the vista short compensator was overgased. we will install a new compensator, namely the EGW Titanium Hybrid.

I have tested several loads with Vectan SP2, at the moment I am loading 8.8 grain with a 124 grain bullet, which gives me a power factor of 171.

Furthermore, we decided to install a tungsten guide rod to bring a little more stability to the system.
 

before I think about the recoil spring ( currently a 10 lbs) the firing pin stop and other things, I will spend about a month with the weapon in the new configuration and see if I can get all the magazines to run reliably.
I am definitely not disappointed anymore. I think there were a lot of mistakes in the fact that I was too hesitant about the ammunition.
 

I will definitely keep you all up to date