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Dont watch anyone else shoot a stage


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Watch as many as you can, better or worse.  you will learn something and improve.  Add to that come early or the day before for local match setups, stay for tear down when shooters get together and discuss the stages.  Lots of information available if you take the time to avail yourself of it.  While some shooters are in the zone and will be reticent to talk before they shoot, most of us are more than happy to talk afterwards, either while moving between stages or after the match.  Don't press folks getting ready to shoot.

 

While few of us can do everything, all of us can do something and learn in the process.

 

I'll second the volunteer aspect, clubs will die without that help and any help you give will be repaid tenfold in what you see, experience and get to understand.

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On 7/22/2021 at 11:09 AM, Boomstick303 said:

Something that has yet to really be brought up in this thread is, as you progress as a shooter you should understand your personal strengths a weaknesses as a shooter.  These strengths and weaknesses are never going to be the same between any 2 shooters.  Your strengths and weaknesses should be accounted for as you plan your run through a course of fire.  Skills like shooting on the move, shooting partials on the move, shooting steel on the move, etc.  Just because someone else can pull something off does not mean other shooters can. This does not always apply but, it is something to keep in mind when watching others shoot a course of fire. 

So true. Unlike you fine people I am a suckie old fart shooter, and this really applies.

 

Quote

have found recently that since I am usually an RO at locals and we seem to have a bit of new/inexperienced shooters at one of the locals here that I've been doing poorly at that specific match all season. I'm a solid B SS shooter but cant seem to do anything but fail hard at this match every month. This past weekend I was running shooters, then scoring and putting it in the tablet. At one point I had to put my own scores in the tablet..... needles to say match mindset was not even close to being a thing. In fact by the end of the match I was wondering if shooting locals is even worth the time and ammo. I dont really care if I place well at them as I use them to see if what I've practiced is improving but still. 

Yes, often in local matches I am in the same boat.  However, this can be rectified.  Don't RO every match. If asked, and you will be, be honest and say that you are taking this match off to focus. Also bringing this up with your club to start a drive to motivate volunteers to step up can be helpful.

Edited by Zincwarrior
I like bacon.
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On 8/6/2021 at 6:22 AM, BillChunn said:

 

So let me get this straight.... you prefer to show up and be a trigger puller.

 

When enough people in this sport do just that, it's the end of USPSA.  You won't have any matches to go to.  There won't be people to run them... or design stages... or build them... or do stats.  Every single match you go to has a solid group of volunteers that allow you to just show up and enjoy yourself.

 

When volunteer help disappears, clubs close.  It's just that simple.

 

At the 2021 Michigan Sectional, Ray Hirst talked about RO training during the shooters meeting.  He said that he had two GM shooters in one of his RO classes.  At the end they both told him that understanding the rules made them a better shooter

 

This is a volunteer sport.  In my humble opinion, taking the timer or manning the tablet is a small part of this sport. Being NROI certified is part of "giving back" to the sport we all enjoy.

 

BC

 

Slow down Bucko.... Lets not jump to conclusions here. Not wanting to become RO certified has absolutely nothing to do with running the tablet, helping set up pre match, tearing down post match, pasting/resetting.... I simply said I do not want to RO shooters, and this is for several reasons. Who wants to be the guy that has to send the new shooter home as his/her own discretion.  The main reason I said I refuse to get certified is because then you're expected to RO. Like the guy said in the previous post, getting stuck in a squad where only 1-2 people know how to is just not for me. Not to mention, I have only been shooting competitively for just north of a year. With that being said, I do not necessarily feel comfortable being the only RO for a squad of 8-9 with 2-3 of those being new shooters. 

Our local matches down here do an amazing job(most of the time) of making sure squads are well balanced and that matches are ran as smooth as possible. We are far from not having people to run these matches, and the people that do, love it.  

So if a trigger puller is the guy that shows up an hour and a half earlier than he needs to, runs the nook 75% of the match, helps other/new shooters throughout the match, paste targets/ resets between shooters...... Then yeah I am a "trigger puller". Maybe try rereading the post before taking shots on an online forum. 

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On 8/5/2021 at 1:51 PM, Ccampo1129 said:

Man I had an extremely similar situation at a local recently... Just so happens it turned out to be one of my worse matches all year. Im there to enjoy myself and shoot. I understand helping out and i am all about that. But I am totally not a fan of RO'ing. I refuse to get certified for this reason. 

But showing up early sometimes a day early, definitely improves outcomes. 

 

  1. Becoming an RO does not obligate you to ever perform as one
  2. You likely have some knowledge gaps that RO training will fix and you can use to your advantage
  3. If you're officiating and no one helps you, then make people step up.  There are ways to do so without being a dick.
  4. What @BillChunn said

 

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7 hours ago, SGT_Schultz said:

 

  1. Becoming an RO does not obligate you to ever perform as one
  2. You likely have some knowledge gaps that RO training will fix and you can use to your advantage
  3. If you're officiating and no one helps you, then make people step up.  There are ways to do so without being a dick.
  4. What @BillChunn said

 

Lets be real, we are literally playing with guns here. You want me to ask someone who has no Idea about the detailed rules to RO a shooter, or even better a new shooter? "Hey, Joe Random... I know this is your first match but take this time and chase that guy shooting the gun around the stage until you think he is done so I can go load my mags." Im not claiming to know it all because I dont. Theres still plenty to learn.

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15 minutes ago, Ccampo1129 said:

Lets be real, we are literally playing with guns here. You want me to ask someone who has no Idea about the detailed rules to RO a shooter, or even better a new shooter? "Hey, Joe Random... I know this is your first match but take this time and chase that guy shooting the gun around the stage until you think he is done so I can go load my mags." Im not claiming to know it all because I dont. Theres still plenty to learn.

 

There are quite a few men I know who are not certified ROs and can competently run a squad.  Most of them have been in the sport only a few years.

 

Most people in a squad are not first time shooters.  Almost anyone can run a tablet and record scores, and with minimal instruction can watch for things like breaking 180, finger in the trigger guard, and foot faults.

 

I've been in this sport for 2 1/2 years and been an RO for one.  I have never been in or heard of a squad in which a lone RO could not get anyone to help. 

 

In fact, during yesterday's match I was the only NROI-certified RO in my squad and got tons of help from knowledgeable shooters who aren't ROs.  They ran many of the shooters and managed scoring and I got plenty of time to manage my match and keep my head in the game while still running some of the shooter and being available when rule or scoring questions came up.

 

And if I ever found myself as a squad RO and my request for assistance were ignored, I'd simply leave the squad and go shoot with another.  Then the rest of the lazy f*#ks can either pick up the slack or go home.

Edited by SGT_Schultz
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On 8/7/2021 at 9:12 PM, Ccampo1129 said:

Slow down Bucko.... Lets not jump to conclusions here. Not wanting to become RO certified has absolutely nothing to do with running the tablet, helping set up pre match, tearing down post match, pasting/resetting.... I simply said I do not want to RO shooters, and this is for several reasons. Who wants to be the guy that has to send the new shooter home as his/her own discretion.  The main reason I said I refuse to get certified is because then you're expected to RO. Like the guy said in the previous post, getting stuck in a squad where only 1-2 people know how to is just not for me. Not to mention, I have only been shooting competitively for just north of a year. With that being said, I do not necessarily feel comfortable being the only RO for a squad of 8-9 with 2-3 of those being new shooters. 

Our local matches down here do an amazing job(most of the time) of making sure squads are well balanced and that matches are ran as smooth as possible. We are far from not having people to run these matches, and the people that do, love it.  

So if a trigger puller is the guy that shows up an hour and a half earlier than he needs to, runs the nook 75% of the match, helps other/new shooters throughout the match, paste targets/ resets between shooters...... Then yeah I am a "trigger puller". Maybe try rereading the post before taking shots on an online forum. 

 

"Not wanting to become RO certified has absolutely nothing to do with running the tablet, helping set up pre match, tearing down post match, pasting/resetting...."

Congratulations. You just described what every single competitor in this sport is supposed to do.

 

"Who wants to be the guy that has to send the new shooter home as his/her own discretion"

Ahhhhh that would be the person that is helping that shooter (and everybody else on the range) stay safe.  In Saturday's match a new shooter saw another shooter flip the last round out of his gun and catch it.  When he tried that, the round went forward, in front of the muzzle and he swept not only his hand but also his forearm.  He went home after loudly complaining that "No one ever told him that".   Knowing the rules prevents you from doing things that get you disqualified.  And yes, I've witnessed gunshot wounds (plural) at USPSA matches.  I certainly hope you never have to.... it's not pretty.

 

"The main reason I said I refuse to get certified is because then you're expected to RO."

As @SGT_Schultz has already stated, you can politely decline.

 

"With that being said, I do not necessarily feel comfortable being the only RO for a squad of 8-9 with 2-3 of those being new shooters."

At one time we were all new shooters, including you.  It might be different at the clubs in your area but around here we try and help new shooters.  Most USPSA clubs cater to new shooters as we all know it's those individuals that are the future of this sport.  When we see a new face, we walk up and introduce ourselves and ask if they have seen this type of shooting before.  It usually leads to some great conversations.  Being ignored tends to put people off and they don't come back to an environment that they feel is hostile.

 

"Our local matches down here do an amazing job(most of the time) of making sure squads are well balanced and that matches are ran as smooth as possible. We are far from not having people to run these matches, and the people that do, love it."  

Until they don't.  This is a transitory sport.  Match directors, stats people, stage designers, range officers, stage builders and yes, even competitors burn out.  When that happens, they leave and find something else to do with their time.

 

The bottom line is this.  There are two ways to learn, from your mistakes or seeing other people's mistakes.  There is a wealth of knowledge on this forum.  People like @Sarge and others that have been around a while and seen a few things happen at not only Level 1 matches but also Level 2 and 3.  They know what it takes to execute a "well run match".  Everything from NROI trained range officials to target witness marks on the sticks. 

 

As others have stated in this thread, taking the NROI Range Officer training made them a better shooter. 

If you feel that won't help you, then that's your decision.

 

BC

 

 

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On 8/7/2021 at 9:12 PM, Ccampo1129 said:

Slow down Bucko.... Lets not jump to conclusions here. Not wanting to become RO certified has absolutely nothing to do with running the tablet, helping set up pre match, tearing down post match, pasting/resetting.... I simply said I do not want to RO shooters, and this is for several reasons. Who wants to be the guy that has to send the new shooter home as his/her own discretion.  The main reason I said I refuse to get certified is because then you're expected to RO. Like the guy said in the previous post, getting stuck in a squad where only 1-2 people know how to is just not for me. Not to mention, I have only been shooting competitively for just north of a year. With that being said, I do not necessarily feel comfortable being the only RO for a squad of 8-9 with 2-3 of those being new shooters. 

Our local matches down here do an amazing job(most of the time) of making sure squads are well balanced and that matches are ran as smooth as possible. We are far from not having people to run these matches, and the people that do, love it.  

So if a trigger puller is the guy that shows up an hour and a half earlier than he needs to, runs the nook 75% of the match, helps other/new shooters throughout the match, paste targets/ resets between shooters...... Then yeah I am a "trigger puller". Maybe try rereading the post before taking shots on an online forum. 

Like it or not, running a tablet is ROing.  You should be looking for Procedurals, DQ etc. If you can’t do any of those things you should probably not help there either.

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1 hour ago, Sarge said:

Like it or not, running a tablet is ROing.  You should be looking for Procedurals, DQ etc. If you can’t do any of those things you should probably not help there either.

In the purest sense, yes. Definitely for L2 and above. But for the monthly L1 club match, running the tablet should be something anyone in the squad can do. I’ve seen DQed new shooters and bored family spectators picking it up. In those cases, other certified ROs help keep an eye on things from the peanut gallery.

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5 hours ago, Mcfoto said:

In the purest sense, yes. Definitely for L2 and above. But for the monthly L1 club match, running the tablet should be something anyone in the squad can do. I’ve seen DQed new shooters and bored family spectators picking it up. In those cases, other certified ROs help keep an eye on things from the peanut gallery.

 

It takes me 30 seconds to explain to a newer shooter what things I want him to look for (finger inside the guard, foot faults, 180) and where to be in relation to me when I'm running someone.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Wow this has gotten some attention. Let me preface with this, I dont mind helping new shooters, old shooters, run stages, ect.... What I do not like is being left at the end of a stage and 2 squads worth of people of which most are extremely capable of helping me the RO know what to do when something is wrong and the normal flow is interrupted. Can I competently run shooters, yes. Am I well versed in the rule book, yes. Do I know how to handle every situation that may cone up, nope. And being left with a newer shooter, with a malfunctioning gun with a case stuck in the chamber while 2 squads of people stand there expecting me to know exactly what to say, how to get the shooter, the gun, and myself off the stage and nobody helping me at all pissed me off. Then I had to basicly beg for someone to run me, then score myself. 

 

Did i accept being a squad RO at that match? Yes. But I've NEVER had a worse experience at a match then that one. And I've shot at that club for 4 years now. I dont know what uo with 2021 but I'm over it. I am taking this as a fluke and moving on. I know the match staff very well there and know they wouldnt have ever intended this to happen but it was what it was. I'll still RO, and help out where I can. This was just not my day or match. 

 

 

What made it worse was there is one particular person who I dont agree with on many things and yet he was the one person who stepped up and helped me through the situation. It happened to be the first time we talked face to face in over two years. 

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I’ll preface this by saying as a match director I want to know when stuff like that happens. I have no qualms about stepping in and asking why no one offered to lend a hand especially when there are a bunch of experienced shooters.  I would be pissed if it happened at my match and not just to me.  I wonder if the peanut gallery thought you had it under control. In that situations request Or yell for range master may have went a long way. That tends to get people moving. You did the right thing though. The gun must be safe. Then you can rule. If you need the rule book you need the rule book because there are very few who know it cover to cover and sometimes it isn’t easy to do under stress. 
 

it’s even harder to transition from pissed off stressful situation to shooter especially when no one else will step up and run you. At that point it’s not on you to find an RO. Get in your shooting zone and the squad can figure it out.  If they can’t they need to get the MD.  I’ve often had to squad myself with the less than astute squads in order to have an ro available.  Just be glad you can’t see who really is a certified ro and just doesn’t want to do it during the match. That’ll really get you hot 

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  • 3 months later...

I prefer to watch and learn the shooters before me shoot a stage.

The largest reason I do is to learn from their errors, more than likely I would have a tendency to make the same errors had I not seen someone before me make. Then make a mental note of it before running the stage.

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The worst you can do is second guess yourself after you've already come up with your plan. You've got to remember that you didn't practice "that" way when you already rehearsed "your" way. Same goes for when you're shooting the targets. Don't shoot them faster than you normally do in practice. 

 

Personal vignette. I shot with the pseudo-supersquad at USPSA Open Nationals in 2016. I was the odd ball out being the only A class shooter. Everyone shot fast and ran like a bat out of hell. I just shot the way I had been practicing and know what gets me A zone hits. I ended up 3rd A Open at my first nationals. 

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  • 1 year later...
  • 2 weeks later...
2 hours ago, flyinverted said:

I walked a stage twice and then watched the guy in front of me shoot it. WTF did he shoot behind those barrels ? Oh there were targets hiding back there. I'm glad I watched him. 

I always look at stage lay out number of rounds then walk through and count to make sure I find all the targets.

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