When will the new peak times be updated for Steel Challenge?

[jkallner]

Just wondering if and when the new peak times will be posted? I know they had the World Speed Shoot and the peak times get affected by that match, just wondering if anyone knows about new Peak times. Hope this is the right forum to post this question. Thanks

[PatJones]

You'll find the steel challenge folks over here:

 

https://forums.brianenos.com/forum/56-steel-challenge/

[ChuckS]

Thread moved...

[jkallner]

On 5/2/2021 at 10:54 PM, PatJones said:

You'll find the steel challenge folks over here:

 

https://forums.brianenos.com/forum/56-steel-challenge/

Thanks.

[jkallner]

I sent a message to the Steel Challenge folks asking the same question.

[Hoops]

I looked at Practiscore for the results from the April 2021 WSSC and could not find catergy information.....for example, RFRO/PCCO, Super Senior,  M Class, etc.  Does this information exist?  

 

Thanks

[jkallner]

Try here: https://practiscore.com/results/html/d15ba750-b43d-4c0b-9ce3-f8687272d6bc

 

I'm not sure about my linking skills, let me know if this is what you were looking for.

[Hoops]

3 minutes ago, jkallner said:

Try here: https://practiscore.com/results/html/d15ba750-b43d-4c0b-9ce3-f8687272d6bc

 

I'm not sure about my linking skills, let me know if this is what you were looking for.

Fantastic.  I have no clue what I was previously doing.  Thank you very much.

 

Hoops

[jkallner]

You are welcome - Check out KC's RFPO - every stage under 10 seconds! 57 second match. Makes me sick with envy!

[nso123]

My understanding is that the SCSA folks meet to discuss the peak times at least once per year.  I don’t think WSSC is the only factor, but there have been lots of fast times posted since last year.  Another substantial drop in peak times won’t surprise me. 

[jkallner]

11 minutes ago, nso123 said:

My understanding is that the SCSA folks meet to discuss the peak times at least once per year.  I don’t think WSSC is the only factor, but there have been lots of fast times posted since last year.  Another substantial drop in peak times won’t surprise me. 

Thanks, yeah, a substantial drop is why I'm interested. If they leave it alone for the rest of the year I might have enough matches to make some improvement, but in RFPO for instance, I'm having to go faster than I like to try for a best stage and I'm missing more than I can afford. And looking at KC with his 57 second match at WSSC just makes me wonder even more. I have more room with CO, but I'm not sure how much room as I just started shooting it last year.

 

Thanks again for the reply, I appreciate it.

[jrdoran]

My guess is anything with low ready start + CO will have reduced Peak times.    Gotta keep working harder Jamie and don't forget the lucky rug !     

[jkallner]

11 hours ago, jrdoran said:

My guess is anything with low ready start + CO will have reduced Peak times.    Gotta keep working harder Jamie and don't forget the lucky rug !     

I'm working on it, there's a lot of power in that rug, but not enough to catch guys like you!

[nso123]

20 hours ago, jkallner said:

Thanks, yeah, a substantial drop is why I'm interested. If they leave it alone for the rest of the year I might have enough matches to make some improvement, but in RFPO for instance, I'm having to go faster than I like to try for a best stage and I'm missing more than I can afford. And looking at KC with his 57 second match at WSSC just makes me wonder even more. I have more room with CO, but I'm not sure how much room as I just started shooting it last year.

 

Thanks again for the reply, I appreciate it.

Just remember, you probably shoot a couple of strings that are plenty good for a personal best on each stage. Don’t go into the stage trying to set a PB. Get a couple of solid strings and then swing at one. If you pull it off, that one string might be enough for a cut.  Also, one of the best in the game told me the easiest place to pick time up is on the first shot. Even cutting just .05 off of your first shot translates to .2 on a stage. 

[jkallner]

8 minutes ago, nso123 said:

Just remember, you probably shoot a couple of strings that are plenty good for a personal best on each stage. Don’t go into the stage trying to set a PB. Get a couple of solid strings and then swing at one. If you pull it off, that one string might be enough for a cut.  Also, one of the best in the game told me the easiest place to pick time up is on the first shot. Even cutting just .05 off of your first shot translates to .2 on a stage. 

Great advice - thanks!

[Hoops]

Does anyone have an understanding of the methodology that SCSA uses to determine universal peak times?  In other words, how much mathamatical weight is given to those that shoot the sub-times vs the rest of the field?

 

Rimfire classes have been experiencing some low score from some very talented folks and the classes have attracted a wide age group.  Most people marvel at the sub 60 matches but we don't tend to give as much attention to the rest of the field.  The current RFRO score of 56.98 or 1.194% is impressive for sure.  But how much weight is it given when evaluating Peak Times for all of the field fairly and representive of the SCSA shooter?  

 

I decided to look at the WSSC April 2021 match for RFRO and how each class of shooter from GM to C faired against the current Peak Times.  I copied an pasted each class from Practiscore to Excel and for each class to calculate Mean (Average), Median and Standard Deviation's to develop numbers to review.  I will share my results below. 

 

I applied the Standard Deviation formula SETEV.S to see where the lowest and highest scores would fall outside of the standard deviantion range.   In my mind, this is important or otherwise each class and Peak Times could be overly influenced by the increadibly low scores and conversely, the highest scores that are perhaps due to age or other physical limitations.  

 

If anyone else (more advance than me with stats) has done similar calculations using another approach, I would be interested to read about it.  

 

RFRO Division WSSC April 2021

 

G - 52 Shooters : 18 or 34.60% shot class or below

68/95%= 71.58 minimum score required.

Low Score: 56.98 / 119.34%

High Score: 92.67 / 73.38%

Median Score:  73.73 / 92.23%. = M / Class

Standard Deviation-Score: 7.49 

Standard Devation Low Score Range: 66.24 / 102.65%

Standard Deviation High Score Range: 81.22 / 83.73%

 

M - 32 Shooters : 4 or 12.5% shot class or below

68/85%= 80.00 minimum score required.

Low Score: 71.18 / 95.53%

High Score: 108.98 / 62.40%

Median Score:  85.83 / 79.23%. = A Class

Standard Deviation-Score: 9.10 

 

A - 30 Shooters : 10 or 33.33% shot class or below

68/75%= 90.67 minimum score required.

Low Score: 80.56 / 84.41%

High Score: 110.32 / 61.64%

Median Score:  92.16 / 73.79%. = B Class

Standard Deviation-Score: 8.56 

Standard Devation Low Score Range: 83.59 / 81.35%

Standard Deviation High Score Range: 100.72 / 67.52%

 

B - 22 Shooters : 9 or 40.9% shot class or below

68/60%= 113.33 minimum score required.

Low Score: 92.54/ 73.48%

High Score: 135.93 / 50.03%

Median Score:  110.21 / 61.70%. = B Class

Standard Deviation-Score: 10.93

Standard Devation Low Score Range: 99.28 / 68.50%

Standard Deviation High Score Range: 121.13 / 56.14%

 

C - 7 Shooters : 7 or 100.00% shot class or below

68/40%= 170.00 minimum score required.

Low Score: 104.98/ 64.77%

High Score: 137.83 / 49.34%

Median Score:  112.09 / 60.67%. =  B Class

Standard Deviation-Score: 14.00

Standard Devation Low Score Range: 98.09 / 69.32%

Standard Deviation High Score Range: 126.09/ 53.93%

 

I think I got the number posted as I calculated.  Old eyes strained  so I wouldn't be surprised for a little dyslexia to have kicked in.

 

Based on this I would not look at reducing Peak Times this year.....but that's me.  I am sure there is much more detailed statistical method for SCSA to use to crunch the huge data base they must have.  

 

Anyway.............food for thought.

 

You math guys/gals........be kind 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jkallner]

3 minutes ago, Hoops said:

Does anyone have an understanding of the methodology that SCSA uses to determine universal peak times?  In other words, how much mathamatical weight is given to those that shoot the sub-times vs the rest of the field?

 

Rimfire classes have been experiencing some low score from some very talented folks and the classes have attracted a wide age group.  Most people marvel at the sub 60 matches but we don't tend to give as much attention to the rest of the field.  The current RFRO score of 56.98 or 1.194% is impressive for sure.  But how much weight is it given when evaluating Peak Times for all of the field fairly and representive of the SCSA shooter?  

 

I decided to look at the WSSC April 2021 match for RFRO and how each class of shooter from GM to C faired against the current Peak Times.  I copied an pasted each class from Practiscore to Excel and for each class to calculate Mean (Average), Median and Standard Deviation's to develop numbers to review.  I will share my results below. 

 

I applied the Standard Deviation formula SETEV.S to see where the lowest and highest scores would fall outside of the standard deviantion range.   In my mind, this is important or otherwise each class and Peak Times could be overly influenced by the increadibly low scores and conversely, the highest scores that are perhaps due to age or other physical limitations.  

 

If anyone else (more advance than me with stats) has done similar calculations using another approach, I would be interested to read about it.  

 

RFRO Division WSSC April 2021

 

G - 52 Shooters : 18 or 34.60% shot class or below

68/95%= 71.58 minimum score required.

Low Score: 56.98 / 119.34%

High Score: 92.67 / 73.38%

Median Score:  73.73 / 92.23%. = M / Class

Standard Deviation-Score: 7.49 

Standard Devation Low Score Range: 66.24 / 102.65%

Standard Deviation High Score Range: 81.22 / 83.73%

 

M - 32 Shooters : 4 or 12.5% shot class or below

68/85%= 80.00 minimum score required.

Low Score: 71.18 / 95.53%

High Score: 108.98 / 62.40%

Median Score:  85.83 / 79.23%. = A Class

Standard Deviation-Score: 9.10 

 

A - 30 Shooters : 10 or 33.33% shot class or below

68/75%= 90.67 minimum score required.

Low Score: 80.56 / 84.41%

High Score: 110.32 / 61.64%

Median Score:  92.16 / 73.79%. = B Class

Standard Deviation-Score: 8.56 

Standard Devation Low Score Range: 83.59 / 81.35%

Standard Deviation High Score Range: 100.72 / 67.52%

 

B - 22 Shooters : 9 or 40.9% shot class or below

68/60%= 113.33 minimum score required.

Low Score: 92.54/ 73.48%

High Score: 135.93 / 50.03%

Median Score:  110.21 / 61.70%. = B Class

Standard Deviation-Score: 10.93

Standard Devation Low Score Range: 99.28 / 68.50%

Standard Deviation High Score Range: 121.13 / 56.14%

 

C - 7 Shooters : 7 or 100.00% shot class or below

68/40%= 170.00 minimum score required.

Low Score: 104.98/ 64.77%

High Score: 137.83 / 49.34%

Median Score:  112.09 / 60.67%. =  B Class

Standard Deviation-Score: 14.00

Standard Devation Low Score Range: 98.09 / 69.32%

Standard Deviation High Score Range: 126.09/ 53.93%

 

I think I got the number posted as I calculated.  Old eyes strained  so I wouldn't be surprised for a little dyslexia to have kicked in.

 

Based on this I would not look at reducing Peak Times this year.....but that's me.  I am sure there is much more detailed statistical method for SCSA to use to crunch the huge data base they must have.  

 

Anyway.............food for thought.

 

You math guys/gals........be kind 

 

Hoops, that is amazing stuff. Thank you very much for all that work. I for one really appreciate your efforts and I hope you are right!

Thanks again!

 

3 minutes ago, Hoops said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hoops]

Oops.........clean up on isle 7.........

 

M - 32 Shooters : 4 or 12.5% shot class or below

68/85%= 80.00 minimum score required.

Low Score: 71.18 / 95.53%

High Score: 108.98 / 62.40%

Median Score:  85.83 / 79.23%. = A Class

Standard Deviation-Score: 9.10 

Standard Devation Low Score Range: 76.73/ 88.62%

Standard Deviation High Score Range: 94.92 / 71.64%

[apoc4lypse]

Hoops, thanks for crunching the numbers.  I was already pretty convinced that most GMs shot at or slightly below the GM time on average so I hope they don't make significant changes to the peak times based on outlier performance from a select few participants.

[jkallner]

20 minutes ago, Hoops said:

Oops.........clean up on isle 7.........

 

M - 32 Shooters : 4 or 12.5% shot class or below

68/85%= 80.00 minimum score required.

Low Score: 71.18 / 95.53%

High Score: 108.98 / 62.40%

Median Score:  85.83 / 79.23%. = A Class

Standard Deviation-Score: 9.10 

Standard Devation Low Score Range: 76.73/ 88.62%

Standard Deviation High Score Range: 94.92 / 71.64%

Thanks again - your basis is the same! Way above my head.

[jkallner]

2 minutes ago, apoc4lypse said:

Hoops, thanks for crunching the numbers.  I was already pretty convinced that most GMs shot at or slightly below the GM time on average so I hope they don't make significant changes to the peak times based on outlier performance from a select few participants.

I'm glad there are number crunchers on the job. I hope there are no changes.

[Hoops]

2 minutes ago, apoc4lypse said:

Hoops, thanks for crunching the numbers.  I was already pretty convinced that most GMs shot at or slightly below the GM time on average so I hope they don't make significant changes to the peak times based on outlier performance from a select few participants.

Surprisingly, only 18 of 34 GM's shot at their class or below.  On the Median/Standard Deviation review, the bottom 8 and top 6 shooters are not included as thier numbers would skew the evaluation of Peak Time review.  The Median or statistical middle range shot at M Class at 92.23%

 

It was fun and interesting to do but a bit more time than I had planned.  I hope SCSA Management already has the program developed to help them do a true evaluation of Peak Times.

 

BTW.......M class RFRO this year had a tuff go at shooting thier class which may go a re-evaluation of Peak Time assesment or percentages for classifications.  

 

 

[euxx]

IMHO, it makes no difference how many shooters shot their class or below. Some of those classes probably based not on the current, but 2..3 increases before that.

 

A more interesting picture would be a distribution of the competitor's times broken by the classes percentages taking the current class winner's times. And take 5% from those top times (for GM's 95% threshold).

[Hoops]

22 minutes ago, euxx said:

IMHO, it makes no difference how many shooters shot their class or below. Some of those classes probably based not on the current, but 2..3 increases before that.

 

A more interesting picture would be a distribution of the competitor's times broken by the classes percentages taking the current class winner's times. And take 5% from those top times (for GM's 95% threshold).

I am not sure I am following the application but totally agree about classifications made thru 2019.  Add to the equation that a shooter can make a classification after only 4 stages and/or without ever shooting Speed Option or Outer Limits increases the variables.

 

For me, my look at the numbers in this fashion was based on this topic discussing when (If) there will be adjustments made to the Peak Times sometime this year and also a topic that I had started elsewhere about how often a shooter shots at or below thier classification.  

 

At some point, SCSA may decide to modify the Peak Times or leave as is.  There are a ton of math variables for them to use.  I suppose in time we will find out what they are going to do.  I am used to looking at Standard Deviations from a set of know numbers (in this case, the definitive numbers within each class) as insight into in what the hi/low ranges of Standard Deviation would be and where the median number is.  May or may not be applicable in the case of SCSA.

 

Thanks.............

 

 

[jrdoran]

I also think we should be looking broader than just the WSSC and look at it stage by stage and throughout the year.     PKs are really a stage level measurement.  

 

Agree w/Eugene that many of the shooters current class definition could be ancient history and not 2021 actual class achievements.   

 

I continue to suspect if you took the top 5% of the scores of GM, and used those as the basis, PK would in fact drop for all low ready classes.