DQ?

[dmshozer1]

Level 1 match,

After hearing  the unload and show clear but before the RO could say, if clear, they holstered their still loaded gun

with the mag in the gun.

The RO said stop, cleared the gun, gave them a warning.

DQ?

[Thomas H]

2 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

Level 1 match,

After hearing  the unload and show clear but before the RO could say, if clear, they holstered their still loaded gun

with the mag in the gun.

The RO said stop, cleared the gun, gave them a warning.

DQ?

 

Was the holstered gun in the appropriate condition for a gun in the holster?  (if single-action, safety on, etc?)

 

If so, no, not a DQ.  Guy needs to pay more attention, and get their brain straightened out, but not a DQ.

 

If the RO says "if finished, unload and show clear" and the person doesn't show clear but does something different, then they aren't done. 

[Kraj]

Was the gun in a safe ready condition? 

 

What rule did they break? 

[Kraj]

16 minutes ago, Thomas H said:

 

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Kraj
Misread

[DirkD]

25 minutes ago, dmshozer1 said:

Level 1 match,

After hearing  the unload and show clear but before the RO could say, if clear, they holstered their still loaded gun

with the mag in the gun.

The RO said stop, cleared the gun, gave them a warning.

DQ?

was the safety on if a single action gun?

What would the DQ or warning be for?

[mreed911]

1 hour ago, dmshozer1 said:

Level 1 match,

 

The safety rules don't change depending on match level.

 

1 hour ago, dmshozer1 said:

DQ?

 

As always, the name of the game is "cite the rule."  If you can't cite the rule you'd DQ them under, it's not a DQ.

[dmshozer1]

19 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

Was the holstered gun in the appropriate condition for a gun in the holster?  (if single-action, safety on, etc?)

 

If so, no, not a DQ.  Guy needs to pay more attention, and get their brain straightened out, but not a DQ.

 

If the RO says "if finished, unload and show clear" and the person doesn't show clear but does something different, then they aren't done. 

Sounds right

[UpYoursPal]

8.2.5: A course of fire must never require the competitor to re-holstera handgun after the start signal. However, a competitor may re-holster provided this is accomplished safely, and the handgun is either unloaded or in a ready condition stated in Section 8.1

 

As long as the proper safeties were applied, the shooter was fine to re-holster, however silly that might have been.

[Boomstick303]

My question is then for a DA/SA action gun when holstered even if the safety is on but the hammer is cocked it would be a DQ once the gun is holstered and the hand is removed from the gun correct?  The rules state a competitor can holster the gun as long as the gun is in "a ready condition stated in Section 8.1".  DA/SA guns have to be de-cocked to be in a ready condition correct?  Therefore, a DA/SA gun would have to be de-cocked before being holstered.  Is it a DQ if it is not?

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

My question is then for a DA/SA action gun when holstered even if the safety is on but the hammer is cocked it would be a DQ once the gun is holstered and the hand is removed from the gun correct?  The rules state a competitor can holster the gun as long as the gun is in "a ready condition stated in Section 8.1".  DA/SA guns have to be de-cocked to be in a ready condition correct?  Therefore, a DA/SA gun would have to be de-cocked before being holstered.  Is it a DQ if it is not?

No

Look at 8.1.2.2

[Fishbreath]

To expand a bit, a DA/SA gun is in a safe ready condition with the hammer back and safety on (8.1.2.3), but Production and Carry Optics require you to be hammer down.

 

When I was shooting Limited and CO with a CZ P-09, I'd swap the safety for the decocker when moving from Limited to CO.

[Boomstick303]

So in Carry Optics and Production, the gun would not be is a ready condition when holstered if the hammer was not fully down or de-cocked?  It would be in a safe condition but not the ready condition.  Is the gun considered a "Selective action" gun for DA/SA guns once the course of fire starts; therefore, rule 8.1.2.3 applies then for all guns including CO and Production and considered the ready condition with the safety on and the hammer back?  Sorry, trying to fully understand this if I ever run into it when I am RO.  

[RJH]

1 minute ago, Boomstick303 said:

So in Carry Optics and Production, the gun would not be is a ready condition when holstered if the hammer was not fully down or de-cocked?  It would be in a safe condition but not the ready condition.  Is the gun considered a "Selective action" gun for DA/SA guns once the course of fire starts; therefore, rule 8.1.2.3 applies then for all guns including CO and Production and considered the ready condition with the safety on and the hammer back?  Sorry, trying to fully understand this if I ever run into it when I am RO.  

 

OK, Carry ops and production: if you start hammer back safety on the gun is in a ready condition but, you just got bumped to open, although you don't get DQed.  However, if you reholster during the course of fire, you can be either hammer back safety on, OR decocked with no penalty,  take your pick.

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

However, if you reholster during the course of fire, you can be either hammer back safety on, OR decocked with no penalty,  take your pick.

 

Thank you.  That makes sense.

[Fishbreath]

Some further reading suggests the controlling rule for DQs is 10.5.11.2: it's not ready conditions that determine whether you're allowed to holster a gun during a course of fire.

 

Since the course of fire ends with "Range is Clear", holstering a loaded DA/SA gun with the hammer down or the safety engaged isn't a DQ.

[IHAVEGAS]

4 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

Sorry, trying to fully understand this if I ever run into it when I am RO.  

 

This is not meant to be snarky, I honestly admire your desire to know the rules. 

The first rule of being an r.o. is don't be a dick.

If you see something that you are certain is not unsafe and you sort of have to work to find a reason to dq - i.e. it is not clearly spelled out to be a dq but things could be interpreted that way - then you might be in violation of the first rule. 

[Boomstick303]

1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said:

The first rule of being an r.o. is don't be a dick.

 

The exact reason I ask these type of questions when I see questions on the board, that make me think, what happens if X does happen and I don't fully understand what rules come into play.  I agree if you are trying hard to DQ someone but do not know the exact rule or rules that come into play it would seem that is being a dick.

 

Hopefully others read and learn as well if they have not thought of these type of situations themselves. 

[mreed911]

10 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

This is not meant to be snarky, I honestly admire your desire to know the rules. 

The first rule of being an r.o. is don't be a dick.

If you see something that you are certain is not unsafe and you sort of have to work to find a reason to dq - i.e. it is not clearly spelled out to be a dq but things could be interpreted that way - then you might be in violation of the first rule. 

 

This, exactly.  Having both been DQ'ed (when I knew I'd broken a rule and one time when I still believe I never did... but couldn't argue) and been the one DQ'ing, it sucks.  It's no fun for ANYONE.  NONE of us want to see someone stop shooting for a match.

 

I will say that my local club(s) offer your next match free if you DQ but hang around to help tape with your squad, etc. after it happens (if you're a good sport about it, etc.).  That'a a rather cool thing.

[Boomstick303]

2 minutes ago, mreed911 said:

I will say that my local club(s) offer your next match free if you DQ but hang around to help tape with your squad

 

Extremely helpful keeping new shooters involved when they DQ.  Good idea.  Especially the ones that DQ their first match.

[ima45dv8]

49 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

I agree if you are trying hard to DQ someone but do not know the exact rule or rules that come into play it would seem that is being a dick.

Even if someone did know the exact rule, trying hard to DQ someone is a good definition of being a dick.

Not saying that was your intention. . .just an observation.

[Boomstick303]

2 hours ago, ima45dv8 said:

trying hard to DQ someone is a good definition of being a dick

 

Agreed. Probably not the correct wording to get my point across. 

[broadside72]

More instances of the rulebook being unclear.

 

Strict reading of Special Condition 1 of Appendix D for Prod and CO says that the hammer MUST be down when in ready conditions related to 8.1. It does not mention before the start signal or during the COF, just that it must be down when meeting 8.1 criteria.

 

8.1.2.3 even says "see Divisions in Appendix D"

 

So while 8.5.2 lets you holster your loaded firearm during the COF (and being subject to 8.1 while doing it), when in Prod/CO it should be hammer down. However it is not a DQ to be hammer back safety on and holstered since 10.5.11.2 does not reference 8.1 at all, but there is also no penalty for not doing it per Appendix D.  Only manually decocking to half-cock at any time is a bump to open.  

I would love to read an actual rule that counters the above because I have not found it yet. Interpretations and "always been done that way" conjecture won't fly. The words in the rulebook mean something or they all mean nothing. 

[RJH]

40 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

More instances of the rulebook being unclear.

 

Strict reading of Special Condition 1 of Appendix D for Prod and CO says that the hammer MUST be down when in ready conditions related to 8.1. It does not mention before the start signal or during the COF, just that it must be down when meeting 8.1 criteria.

 

8.1.2.3 even says "see Divisions in Appendix D"

 

So while 8.5.2 lets you holster your loaded firearm during the COF (and being subject to 8.1 while doing it), when in Prod/CO it should be hammer down. However it is not a DQ to be hammer back safety on and holstered since 10.5.11.2 does not reference 8.1 at all, but there is also no penalty for not doing it per Appendix D.  Only manually decocking to half-cock at any time is a bump to open.  

I would love to read an actual rule that counters the above because I have not found it yet. Interpretations and "always been done that way" conjecture won't fly. The words in the rulebook mean something or they all mean nothing. 

 

Interesting..... the penalty would be 6.2.5.1 a bump to open.  It does seem in the circular argument sort of way that the rule book is written that reholstering cocked and locked gun  in production or CO would be a bump to open.  I never caught that before. Probably cause no one ever reholsters so it hasn't come up.  Would love to hear an official ruling on this

[mreed911]

10 hours ago, RJH said:

 

Interesting..... the penalty would be 6.2.5.1 a bump to open.  It does seem in the circular argument sort of way that the rule book is written that reholstering cocked and locked gun  in production or CO would be a bump to open.  I never caught that before. Probably cause no one ever reholsters so it hasn't come up.  Would love to hear an official ruling on this

 

The next revision of the rules will allow "Mexican Carry," so holstering won't be a problem any more.

[MikeBurgess]

15 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

The exact reason I ask these type of questions when I see questions on the board, that make me think, what happens if X does happen and I don't fully understand what rules come into play.  I agree if you are trying hard to DQ someone but do not know the exact rule or rules that come into play it would seem that is being a dick.

 

Hopefully others read and learn as well if they have not thought of these type of situations themselves. 

I'll chime in on this, 

really don't be a dick is rule 2 keep everyone safe is rule 1 

if you think something unsafe has occurred stop the shooter, then be honest and tell them what you believe the issue is. If you don't know the rule exactly, look it up and or ask for the CRO or RM too help. Now rule 2 comes into play if it turns out you were wrong on the rules apologize to the shooter and order a reshoot and get on with the match. the don't be a dick part is not getting your ego caught up in having to be right one way or another every time. We are all human, do your best to keep people safe and be ok being wrong.